I wish we lived in a post-scarcity Star Trek world where there’s no money except there is but not in the Federation except when it IS in the Federation and no one has any needs except when they do.
I wish we lived in a post-scarcity Star Trek world where there’s no money except there is but not in the Federation except when it IS in the Federation and no one has any needs except when they do.
I'm glad there is no money in the Federation. Unless you count credits. Which are not money. Unless you use thousands of them to pay the Barzans. Or give them to Starfleet officers to buy things like tribbles and drinks at Quark's.
While Federation Credits are money, I was under the impression they were only really used when you want to buy stuff outside of the Federation from sellers who don't share the same socialist society that the Federation has. On a Federation world I believe they wouldn't have much value.
DS9 was not a Federation station, and the Bajorans were clearly ok with a capitalist presence. Giving Starfleet personnel a stipend seems pretty unavoidable if they want their officers to be able to partake in practically anything on DS9.
But that gives them inherent value and would end up being traded internally. And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don't have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.
And as I said, they gave thousands of credits to the Barzans, so credits are obviously worth something when exchanged back to the Federation too.
On top of that, in TOS, there is a scene where someone wagers with credits (conceptually, but it basically sounded like a thing). To add to that, credits were being used on Space Station K-7, a Federation space station, or Uhura would not have been able to purchase a Tribble and Cyrano Jones wouldn't have been there selling them.
I'm afraid we will have to accept that Federation economics makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
But that gives them inherent value
Yes.
and would end up being traded internally.
Maybe. But pretty much everything is provided for free on Earth (and presumably elsewhere in the Federation?), so while it has value, I imagine the vast majority wouldn't care, it'd be valueless to them.
And then people would buy up stuff from outside the Federation and charge people in the Federation for those things in credits so that those people don't have to travel off-planet to get those desirable things.
If replicators and such can provide basically everything free of charge, you'd have very little desire to earn money and buy things.
I don't really remember anything about the Barzans or the giving of credits to them, so I can't really talk about that.
And as for TOS, yeah, TOS is all over the place. They also have hundreds of mirror Earths, a German Nazi planet, Gangster Earth, etc. the whole series is a little all over the place and contradictory.
Maybe they only buy one and store the data within the replicators. Meow it’s free for all within the federation.
This is why I don't really consider the economics of the federation to be socialist. It's all some vague idealist futuristic economy that lacks any semblance of democracy by only having two representatives per planet, regardless of population size.
This was commonly brought up on DaystromInstitute on reddit, but while DS9 is a Bajoran station it's run and maintained by Starfleet. Quark still has to "pay" for using the staion's power, using station personnel for repairs and maintenance, and likely some form of rent. In lieu of actually paying money to fulfill those debt, the equivalent amounts are credited to the station personnel. Which they can use to order drinks or meals, reserve the holosuite, play darts or dabo, and so on.
In one episode Inparticular, Sisko was leveraging into Quark about actually charging his rent..so it kinda lines up.
Yet, people still work normal jobs on earth. You have people serving tables because they feel like it? Families like the Picards that have vast orchards and a huge manse for generations?
The utopia has never really made sense outside of starfleet having their own internal economy that's basically only limited by raw resources for energy to construct more starships / space stations.
As for the first one... Yes! People run restaurants and such because they enjoy it.
This is most notable with Siskos dad who is very upset on any day he can't work because his work makes him happy.
"Let's see, time to write a Star Trek episode. Says here the Federation doesn't use money. Welp, no idea how to write a story without it so... the Federation has money now. Man, this is easy!"
I think it works as a sort of reverse local currency that the federation administration exchanges at given rates for trade outside the federation, but cannot be spent within its domain and has no direct value to its citizens.
We also know that at least energy credits / transporter rations exist, so my guess is the actual currency is the power required to do things, like transport or replication. Average people in the federation probably have a fairly large allotment of energy to spend for themselves and rarely need any extra, so they have no real use for the currency aside from interacting with other cultures or possibly exchanging it with the federation's external commerce administration.
The UFP doesn't have an internal currency, per se, but other planets, species, etc do. In maintaining trade and relations they still provide goods and services which, depending on the race, would be more inclined to pay for it instead of trade or barter. Maybe those funds get distributed as sort of a UBI for all citizens, or added to a slush fund for those involved in said transactions? Bob the federation civilian has 10,000 Fed Credits, which can be used to purchase a bottle of Klingon Blood wine and hand crafted Mek'Leth the next time he catches a ride on a Federation transport to Qo'noS.
Maybe even on a starship, supply runs or something like it are done which ends in compensation of some sorts. Those funds can get distributed to the crew, so next time they're in port on another planet they can purchase local goods.
I like to think the federation can synthesize latinum but keep it under wraps for fear of disrupting/inflating their trade agreements.
Edit: s/platinum/latinum
I've always wondered about how they have to seemingly make the replicators suck at random shit, like how they can't just make the fancy new tricorders (Lower Decks S1E3, I think) and have to compete for the chance to win one.
For TV writing, basically. If they actually used their technology to its full potential, the federation would never get into many of the problems they get into on the show.
Think of all those episodes where there’s intruders on the Enterprise or someone has gone missing but nobody noticed. What’s the first thing they do? Ask the computer to scan for life signs on the ship.
Turns out the computer is continuously monitoring the life signs of everyone on board! So why aren’t intruders immediately trapped with forcefields and security automatically notified? Why isn’t there an instantaneous, automatic amber alert when a crew member goes missing from the ship? Why aren’t injured/sick people automatically transported to sickbay instead of dying alone in their quarters or a low-traffic corridor?
The computer can also monitor life signs down on the planet, so it could and should transport people to sickbay instantly when they get injured. Otherwise, for dangerous planets with unstable atmospheres that block scanning and transporting they should not be sending crew down at all. Send probes! They can replicate tons of them, have them fly down to collect information, and return to orbit for rendezvous.
I just want a fucking replicator and a holodeck. I'd be set for life with those two things.
Also: Quark wouldn't accept credits would he? I thought he only cared about gold pressed latinum, which is treated like cash and even comes in various denominations (slips, strips and bars). IIRC from one of the first season episodes of DS9, Starfleet stationed there are given like 5 slips a week or something. Which is barely anything at all.
Quark is ferengi, he'll accept anything of value, for a modest fee of course oh and you'd have to factor in the premium for currency conversion + a little extra on top for the effort to go out and convert credits. Then there's also the middle man fee, the convenience fee and the using-credits-on-a-weekend fee...
Oh you’re using a different bank than we do, best to take all of that and add si-eventy percent to it.
Yes, I’d love to have my own wine estate in the countryside, just like the Picard family!
It still sort of makes sense, as others mentioned for working with non-federation entities. But the money-less thing makes more sense to me if you have replicators. The only "cost" there is the material you use for the replicator. So even if you had a money society, things --should-- be dirt cheap since most even outside the federation should have a replicator.
In some ways, I think it'd be harder to have a money and market system when replicators exist.
I assume replicators have some non-trivial energy debt, too. If my memory were better, I might even remember an episode where replicators couldn't be used because they were on backup power. Like, compared to warp, it's nothing, but if the warp core or main dilithium generators are offline, replicators don't work.
I know we're in tenforward, but another good post-scarcity-except-when-not is Iain Banks' Culture. Intelligences still trade, but it's more information/skillset/favors based.
Replicators being unusable because of power shortages was an early plot point in Voyager, and there are things that can't just be replicated since they often had to trade with friendly civilisations that they encountered.
Of course, the real answer is that they went with whatever rules suited the plot at the time, consistency be damned.
I wish they'd explored this more in Voyager, as rationing their energy reserves was always a narrative tension throughout the series. It would have been interesting to explore a crew used to post-scarcity economics have to wrangle with switching to scarcity economics and all of the problems that come with it.
There is no money in the Federation itself. Places like DS9 however are not part of the Federation. It is easy to forget that because the Federation is in charge of daily operations of the station, but it is a Bajoran station, and they do have ultimate control.
Whenever we see monetary exchanges, it is with non-Federation species. Quark is Ferengi, and is operating a business on a Bajoran station. The Barzans were not Federation members at the time of the Barzans Wormhole episode.
While money isn't needed in daily life inside the Federation, when interacting with other species there needs to be some form of payment available to exchange for those goods and services. Starfleet clearly has some system for officers to use to pay for that stuff when operating out of places like DS9 or when vessels interact with species outside the Federation.
I think I remember an episode of Voyager where they are on a planet and "charging" purchases at a market to the ship. I'd assume those charges are totaled up and Voyager as a whole comes to some sort of trade arrangement to pay for it all instead of trying to figure it all out individually when it's not a situation where Starfleet is interacting with the species on a constant basis to have something like set exchange rates.
If it has no value inside the Federation, why would it have value outside the Federation? That makes no sense. Why would you negotiate to give a certain amount of credits to the Barzans in that case? Why not seventeen trillion? Why not a googol plex amount of credits? You can always "print" more credits since they have no internal value, right?
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The Federation is post-scarcity. They don't need to worry about how much things cost inside their economic bubble.
Just because Federation citizens don't need to think about money and buying things as part of their daily lives, that doesn't mean things have no price. For federation citizens, that price means nothing and they'd likely never even see it. For a Ferengi buying something like replacement parts at a Federation station though, that price matters.
When you're dealing with other cultures that do work with a monetary system, they have a monetary value for things. If you're going to interact and buy/sell items back and forth you need to have some sort of system to facilitate that. So the Federation has a standard credit, and items are worth various amounts so the cost can be directly exchanged like we do currently comparing different currencies. That credit just doesn't really matter to Federation citizens that don't interact outside the Federation, which is likely the nearly all of them given the size of the Federation.
We only see it referenced several times because we're watching Starships that interact with all these different cultures daily. We aren't watching Mr. Wilson who lives on Earth and has never left Federation space. While he does travel, he goes to Risa for vacation, and that is inside the Federation still. So his daily work, recreation, and even vacation doesn't involve needing any money.
Living in the federation sounds great til Starfleet goes and provokes some horrific alien empire for the 9000th time
Or the entire Federation gets taken over by some corrupt entity or entities. Or it's just inherently corrupt.
Feels to me like we're almost at World War III, which starts in 2026 (as we all know). After that Zefram Cochrane is going to invent the warp drive and we're going to get there.
🎵 It's been a long road
Getting from there to here
It's been a long time
But my time is finally near
[...] 🎶Truly a paradise, except when it isn't
This is head cannon and I can't really support it in universe but it's the only way the Federation economy makes sense to me.
Every Federation citizen gets an energy allotment that they can use to replicate anything that they need. The allotment is well beyond what's required to meet their basic needs. A Federation Credit is an allotment of a certain amount of energy that the holder can use to have the Federation replication something for them. The credits aren't particularly valuable to Federation citizen living in Federation controlled space because they are already allotted a large amount of energy.
Unfortunately, your head canon doesn't explain why credits were part of the negotiations with the Barzans for their wormhole. I suppose you could add the detail that the Federation was actually agreeing to provide a certain amount of energy to the Barzans. That might work. It would be a weird way to put it though.
I suppose you could add the detail that the Federation was actually agreeing to provide a certain amount of energy to the Barzans.
That's pretty much what I was saying, maybe I didn't say it well.
A Federation credit is a right to use a certain amount of energy on a Federation replecator. So if a non Federation group wanted to get 10k self sealing stem bolts from the Federation then Starfleet would look up the energy requirement to replicate the stem bolts and divide that by how much energy is represented by one credit and that's how many credits the group would have to use to get the stem bolts.
We could be in a post-scarcity world, if certain mentally unwell individuals had less power.
There is money in every other series