Stop the timeline, I want to get off

I would suggest not starting with the premise that the problem is "White America." These folks don't speak for White people, not even remotely, and buying into that falsehood is exactly what they want.

The idea of a white America to begin with is inherently toxic, tbf. American whiteness is a construct made by ruling elites once they realized that the Irish and Italian immigrants were going to outnumber the British-Germanic descended citizenry.
- I mean, the United States is something like 75% white, so its mostly white. Right?
  
  The problem is batshit crazy racists, violent gun-obsessed lunatics, and other combo mental health/social indoctrination problems.
  
  And yes, by statistics those people are 75% likely to be white, too. And wouldn't you know it, stats for mass shootings show that's pretty accurate.
  
  https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/
  
  Maybe we all need to stop blaming race for everything. Maybe it's just America.
  
  it's more like 60% white
  
  statistics regarding "mass shootings" are ALWAYS misleading because the definition of "mass shooting" is way more broad than most people realize. More than 1 victim = mass shooting. So if there's a gang shootout between 3 or more people, that's a mass shooting. Someone shoots their cheating spouse and the person they cheated with? Mass shooting. It's very rarely the kind of planned terroristic thing people associate the term with.
  
  I think your overall point is still valid but I wanted to clear those things up.
  
  Good details, thanks for adding.
  
  You're missing the point.
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

I'm not going to say it any better than MLK, so I'll just leave the link here.

White America is the problem. Sure, moderate white Americans are so much less terrible than outright racists, but a complacent majority that is happy to reap the benefits of an unjust system, simply because it is the comfortable path, is one of the major reasons why it's so hard to make movement against those racists.
- Labeling an entire group of people “the problem,” based on a superficial demographic trait is prejudiced and unhelpful. You often alienate the very people you want help from. Rather than using a superficial trait that has nothing inherently to do with the problem, target the problem itself: the problematic ideology.
  
  I don’t care to debate this, tbh. If you really think white people are the problem you’re just being racist too, and I have no patience for that.
  
  You're absolutely right, I'm sorry. Let me try that again without mentioning race, in a discussion about race inequality.
  
  ~~White America is~~ People who benefit from an injust system are the problem. Sure, moderate ~~white Americans~~ people who benefit from an injust system are so much less terrible than outright racists, but a complacent majority that is happy to reap the benefits of an unjust system, simply because it is the comfortable path, is one of the major reasons why it's so hard to make movement against those racists.
  
  Now, let me check my notes on who benefits from an injust system of racism in America...
  
  "white America" is another description for white supremacy in the US. What you're recommending is to dismantle systems of oppression without dismantling white supremacy. I hope you can see how that's a problem without me explaining it.
  
  Then say the problem is White supremacy. Saying the problem is White America sounds far too much like saying the problem is White Americans, especially to someone who's not educated on racial issues in the same way you are.
  
  Let's go back to that MLK quote then.
  
  shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.
  
  Uh... do you wanna elaborate on what you mean there? Because what I'm inferring seems kinda bad and I don't wanna put words in your mouth.
  
  “white America” is another description for white supremacy in the US.
  
  Only among people who desperately need to touch grass
  
  You’re apparently under the delusion that all White Americans are White supremacists, which—as I said to the other respondent—simply means you’re racist.
  
  I’m always amazed anti-White racists can’t work out they’re making the same mistakes every other racist is making. You’ve actually deluded yourselves into thinking you can’t be racist against White people. How you fail to grasp such a simple concept as judging an entire group of people based on their skin color, while simultaneously claiming you understand it better than anyone else is beyond me.
  
  You can't be racist again white people because they are the majority. You can be prejudiced sure, but racism doesn't work that way. White people literally rule the world, so call them racist if you like, but they still have all the power.
  
  That's just your way of justifying your racism against Whites. It allows you to create double standards for behavior based on skin color, which you've just demonstrated. I don't have time to debate racism with racists, so I won't be responding further.
- I think using that MLK quote should be considered a form of Godwin's Law at this point
  
  Can you do me a favor and scroll back to the top of the thread and remember how the conversation started? Invoking Godwin's here about MLK isn't really the point you think it is.
  
  Invoking the same MLK quote that's been making the rounds recently isn't the win you think it is.

Require public middle schools to include mandatory courses or seminars about empathy, emotional wellbeing, and basic social skills.

or

Put them with the other white-supremacists on a square of land and let them be an independent territory, on the condition that anyone who wants to leave must be allowed to leave to the US. And point and laugh as they realize only white men would want to live in a society that arbitrarily puts white men at the top.

or

Kindly ask the media to stop using the same 5 "scary SJWs who want to kill all men!!!!" to convince half the country that they are being persecuted by all women and minorities everywhere.

(disclaimer: results may vary.)

Require public middle schools to include mandatory courses or seminars about empathy, emotional wellbeing, and basic social skills.

I'm all for this.

I was sitting in a McDonalds restaurant in the late morning on a weekday in the Midwest USA. There was a group of older white men drinking coffee and having discussions. I wasn't really following their conversation, but one man made one of the stupidest and out-of-touch statements I've heard in months. Its a turn of phrase that sounds like he heard it somewhere else and was parroting it like it was clever. It isn't, of course.

It was this: "We spend so much effort trying not to offend anyone anymore. Why can't we just get back to just offending everyone?"

This man was an older version of the OP; white, cis-gendered male. He's been the recipient of privilege his entire life any may not even be aware of what others go through or think that those that do "deserve it". He doesn't get that "Why can't we just get back to just offending everyone?" was when white males like himself were immune to being criticized in society for their gender and skin color while every group that wasn't white and male was on the receiving end of bigotry and misogyny. Of course he wants to go back to that, where he can insult and belittle others others without any consequences.

I have no idea why these people can step outside of themselves for even a short time to listen to the experiences of others, and put themselves in their place to feel what it would feel like to be on the receiving end, to experience institutional racism and misogyny limiting what they can do in life in our society. I don't know how these old white men, who many claim to be instilled with a strong sense of justice, and see their fellow citizens being treated differently by our society and our justice system.

How can these people possibly become better versions of themselves when their identity is built on the premise that they are intrinsically better than other people just because of their male genitalia and lack of skin pigmentation?

who many claim to be instilled with a strong sense of justice

They think justice is them (and people they like) winning. That's what they believe. Values and morals are justifications for what they do, not reasons to do things.

That's why they will never understand when you try to explain how they are not actually following their values, or heros, or religion. Their main idea is that they are correct and right. It's not a complicated position but it's very human.

If you don't think like that, congratulations. You're a better person. But that doesn't mean you'll be able to convince them that they're wrong.
“We spend so much effort trying not to offend anyone anymore. Why can’t we just get back to just offending everyone?”

I mean, it's obviously wrong to lash out to do the opposite of what people order of you, yet I feel like in minor ways we've all done that to some degree. I also can't think of any close group of friends that hasn't picked out some kind of group that they are okay with disparaging - be it local drivers, voters of a political party, people playing a certain game, etc. If it seems like the goal for happiness is to just forbid any externally focused negativity, it's not hard to see why that doesn't seem appealing. People always have gripes, and want to express them.

You even see this with little kids. They do a thousand mean/bad things parents hate because they want to do things. The biggest tip I think early parents need is to stop leading every sentence with "Don't ____!" - instead try to invent things that they can do that the parents are okay with. "Hey, count how many white cars are on the road." "Hey, can you fill this coloring book using only wrong colors", etc. They just want to figure out a 'space' that they're not going to be shot down for inventiveness.

The key, and maybe this is something those coffee drinkers don't understand and could even plausibly be taught, is to focus any gripes towards thoughts and actions of others, never identities. If you asked extremely bigoted people whether "people in wheelchairs are stupid", I would bet a fair number of them would recoil and tell you to shove off, because even they know no one asks to be in a wheelchair. But it's less clear to them why someone might end up a junkie on drugs, or illegally immigrating, or what multiple reasons there might be for links between arrest rate and skin color.

I have no idea why these people can step outside of themselves for even a short time to listen to the experiences of others

I mean, you may have answered your own question with the "I have no idea" part. If you can't envision an even halfway possible reason for the life they've lead, bringing them to that point they make that statement, you have your own answer how it's hard to put yourself in others' shoes.

At the risk of explaining the joke, you're not far off. Become an organizer at your workplace/apartment complex/community. Creating working class solidarity is the best way to fight against fascism. If you have extra time on your hands, you can volunteer at your local polling place, join a local group of antifascists that infiltrate fascist communities, or lobby government to make changes like making it easier to vote. There's a lot of options, but none of them are particularly easy to accomplish.

Creating working class solidarity

You guys say that about everything

"Man my back hurts today"

"It would hurt a lot less if you organized your fellow proletariats to overthrow the bourgeoisie"
- Tell me more about how solidarity isn't the answer to fight fascism.
  
  When all you have is a hammer...
  
  So what you're saying is that a group of working class people creating coalitions, community resources, mutual aid, etc won't be a good deterrent from fascism? The best way to fight fascism is to remove the material conditions that lead to people becoming fascists.
  
  They have a sickle, too!
  
  Lol
- you're purposely being facetious.

It's really hard to found any kind of movement that aims to respect and accept "cis-gendered, white, straight men". Because, factually and in the public eye, those people just generally need less help than various minorities that each get oppressed.

But for any individual person, it's horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for "Black Engineers of America", or "Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents". I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.

The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the "majority"), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can't finish the sentence "I am PROUD to be ____" without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people's eyes.

My post is longer than it should be for a meme comment, but I do want to end on a positive / plan of action: At the very least, one step is acknowledgment, and that never has to come at the cost of those minority groups - each of whom need their own, often more urgent help. A big one I'd want is to completely shut down the "male negativity" that's kinda formed in media, as a backlashing response to the "women negativity" in terrible old media. We often say we want men to open up and be more emotional, yet it's still played for laughs on TV.

I tried to tag you in my reply below but I'm not sure if I did it right. I wrote TWO long posts underneath @cubedsteaks -- and YOU said your post was longer than it should be! If you don't have time to read my serialized thoughts below, just know that I appreciated your response.
The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the “majority”), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can’t finish the sentence “I am PROUD to be ____” without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people’s eyes.

I mean, no one will give you guff for "Irish-American pride" or "English-American pride" or "Italian-American pride", and American pride is basically mandatory in our society. Male pride is still very much lionized (pun intended) in our society, and celebrated. I believe the in-vogue phrase for gynephilia positivity is "All women are queens" followed by clapping emojis. Nothing for being cis-gendered, I suppose.
But for any individual person, it’s horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for “Black Engineers of America”, or “Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents”. I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.

What's so crazy about this is even I, as a bisexual woman don't get to go to any support groups cause where I live, if you're not trans and a youth, who cares?? If you're not BIPOC, tough shit.

Hell most people, even other gay people will act like bisexuality isn't real or doesn't count or isn't good enough to warrant any kind of support.

Like even the queer events here are usually just targeted towards trans and BIPOC or aro/ace people. It's like the other parts of LGBTQ+ don't even matter to them.
- I'm attempting to reply to @Katana314 & @cubedsteaks but I really don't know what I'm doing. Katana, you say your post is too long for the format, and I totally get what you mean but want you to know how much I appreciate it. I'll use the spoons metaphor to say that sometimes I'm able, open, eager to engage in patient dialogue... and sometimes I'm not. Tonight I am and I've just written a reply that's TOO LONG for the input field! Here's Part One:
  
  I'm white, 51, gay, artist. Whenever I gripe about "white America" it is from my biased perspective. My experience of "my culture" growing up was a homogenous monoethnic white Christian blob, centered on money/materialism and gatekeeping/judgment of others. That doesn't have to be everyone's experience of white America, but it was mine -- and my observation of cultural critiques tells me that I'm not the only one who saw things that way. I'm not self-hating now but I was deeply self-hating until I accepted myself as "unacceptable" to the standards of my upbringing. I took a different path and feel that I have found meaning by rejecting my upbringing. Other groups speak of "the ancestors" and such... I find little sustenance there since my ancestors were white supremacists. The generation above me are anti-gay, Fox-watching, Trump-voting... We have superficial relationships but not what I call love. In some ways this gulf is "my fault" because it has been my "decision" to reject my upbringing... but I suffered massive cognitive dissonance until I sort of "rebooted" as a clean slate. Sigh. I am running out of spoons as I type -- didn't mean to get so deeply personal. Uhhh, earlier someone objected to me calling out "white America"; I didn't reply because it didn't feel like an invitation to productive conversation. The best I might have come up with would have been sarcastic: "Gosh, I'd hate for any white Americans to see my post and decide to be awful people to spite me!" It's just... yeah. I knew when I wrote my initial post it was lacking nuance, because of the format. And I live in FUCKING JACKSONVILLE. [Pause for real tears.] I have been in the store where the recent murders took place. I received my Covid shots on the campus of the HBCU the white terrorist prowled before he went and killed elsewhere. When I was the killer's age I was at my lowest point mentally/emotionally. If I had had easy access to guns I might not be here today. Thankfully guns were not part of my family's culture. Few people I knew growing up in the 70s/80s were into guns. Some people went on hunting trips. Other than that no one wanted guns around in the suburbs other than bb-guns. When I was the killer's age I felt zero connection to community. I never fell into white supremacy (beyond the implicit bias I absorbed as standard). I was religious and deeply, desperately closeted. Any aggressive and negative thoughts I had were directed at the gay community. I was bitter that support groups existed for "them" and not for me. It could have been my support, but my homophobia was so strong it took me until almost 30 to accept myself as gay. My 20s were awful. My life continues to be isolated... The gay men I know are into money, superficial looks, partying, drugs, alcohol, and more money -- and I hate lazily invoking stereotypes but this is how I feel. I've known so many gay Republicans. It hurts. My own voting history was: GOP, NOTHING, GREEN, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM... I'm a little proud I only voted GOP once, but it took me 3-4 presidential cycles for me to understand the US democracy game. That's another area where community might have helped, but I felt none.
  
  If I had the spoons...
  I have a friend who begins her fantasies with, "When I win the lottery..." Since I see the lottery as harmful money-worship I had a conversation with this friend about it. She uses the phrase to inspire freedom to dream, so I invented my own variation: When I'm fully funded! An artist (who rejects a consumerist model) can dream, can't he?!
  
  1/2
  
  2/2
  When I'm fully funded I would devise a series called White People Problems. Despite the provocative title I would not presume to speak for others. Honest discourse is personal and leaves the generalizing to the audience. In this long post I have scratched the surface of what I see as "white people's problems." I believe that many white Americans are hurting, disconnected from meaning, disconnected from each other. The centrality of money and centuries of exploitation are the foundational causes. Racial division is a secondary result and useful tool to maintain society based on materialism and exploitation. On Being is my favorite podcast. I think it may have been an episode with Isabel Wilkerson (Caste https://www.isabelwilkerson.com) that pointed out how all of society is harmed by racism, white supremacy, inequality. I believe white Americans suffer deeply. In very different ways from non-whites, obviously. I believe that the loudest voices addressing white people who are suffering offer increased hate and bigotry, in a stubborn commitment to sunk costs. If I were fully funded I would seek to address this need. I believe that the suffering of white Americans (including materialism, lack of community, lack of meaning) is destroying civilization and the planet.
  
  And SIGH a slight post script for anyone who may feel argumentative about what I have said: There is a difference between blame, shame, and hate, and what I am saying. Also keep in mind that I am trying to phrase this SIMPLY as my beliefs from my personal feelings and experience as a white male who has lived the past half century. In my experience white identity, white culture, white commitment to democracy and other supposed values, and white Christianity are hollow and meaningless. I'm not trying to argue others into seeing my point of view, but I think that the things we are witnessing reinforce my suspicions. Declines in religious membership indicate something is lacking there. Religion especially angers me because of its privileged status and the fact that it is the realm that could be healing and helping. In my experience US white Christianity is causing harm. I called myself an atheist for many years; and, though that's technically accurate, I now identify as Humanist. I prefer to express positive values to others. I think a person can be any other affiliation and also a humanist.
  
  ...
  
  I could go on forever because I feel a lot of passion around these topics. I'll end by saying democracy is consent. Respecting each other requires consent. We will never fully understand or agree with each other. Improving democracy, while participating in our current flawed system, is the only hope I see. Money and structural inequalities are corruptions of democracy that remove consent. One person, one vote. Removing manipulation. I don't believe I will live to see the triumph of respect for ourselves and each other. It's my guiding star, though.
  
  I make the joke about "fully funded" but it's not a joke. If anyone who sees this knows of any way I could direct my passion towards improving the world I am open to suggestions. All my previous jobs were making the world worse, and making me unhappy. I quit during the pandemic. I am a visual artist, committed to humanism and democracy. Lately I have been living off beans, bread, and peanut butter. If I could I would put this paragraph in iMessage hidden style, or upside down. I don't want to ruin the points I'm sincerely trying to make by discussing the fact that I'm not making ends meet. At the same time I do think my lack of income is a relevant data point.
- I already wrote 2 loooong responses to you and @katana314 but I wanted to piggyback more specifically on what you say here. As an artist I have felt a lack of opportunities / interest / niche because I'm a middle aged, white, male, upper middle class background. I somehow don't think my gayness counts for much, probably related to some of my own stereotypes about my demographic that I get into in my longer comments. The doors that are open to me as a white male do not lead places I want to go. Living according to my values leads me into spaces where my characteristics are (possibly) unwanted. It's not something I normally articulate due to the many advantages I do have, and have experienced. My focus is to produce work in accordance with my values, to never stop expressing and living according to those values, and the positive feedback I do receive is more valuable that way.

Does anyone have any ideas how to make improvements in the sorry state of white America?

If you see a nazi punch them in the fucking face.

Or if they identify as a nazi using an easilly removable pin, give them something that can't be taken off.

Fixing something difficult and complex is always harder than breaking it more.

How do we fix white america? I don’t know. But I know that teaching each other that it’s not white vs black, but it’s not racist vs racist and that as white people we’re gonna have to prove which side we’re on regularly. Similar with every other axis of oppression.

I think we also have to remember that the fascists are actively recruiting these boys. Antifascists need to counter that. Idk how, but we need to find out. Antifascism is at its best when it’s like the rainbow coalition. We all understand who the real enemy is: fascists.

Yes. The murderer on Saturday is said to have had a swastika drawn on his gun and a Rhodesian army patch on his clothing. As bad as Florida schools are he didn’t learn to like those things in school. He was groomed, most likely online. The conservative reactions seek to identify the fault as squarely within the individual — although not to the extent that they will support mental health screening prior to gun purchases. In other words, not to any meaningful extent. The only consequence a conservative politician supports is vitriolic tough talk for the cameras.
as white people we’re gonna have to prove which side we’re on regularly

Remember when Muslims were socially pressured to prove they weren't terrorists by condeming the terrorists, following 9/11?

I have no problem with condemning racism, seeing as it is evil, but we should maintain an "innocent until proven guilty" policy.
Nazis are the ultimate intersectional mobaliser
- Absolutely. Even if you’re a cishet white man who fits all the things they like fascists are still bad for you. They’ll throw you into battle or recruit you to do atrocities or just tank the economy and ensure you have to follow lockstep with their rule while hurting everyone who’s different

End stochastic terrorism by de-platforming the alt-right pipeline. These shoots all listen to the same pundits, go to the same messageboards. We can debate them and debunk their theories, which does work somewhat, ultimately I think disrupting these platforms is the answer.

Before that it was John Birch Society spreading out magazines and having meetings in homes like Avon. I do agree the internet, mainstream radio, and TV helped a lot too. Cutting down access to not yet radicalized people I do think would help. People used to think birchers were crazy, even on the right. Up until they basically transformed into the Tea Party. (Funded a lot by Kochs, sons of one of the original Birchers).
- Oh yea, you're right.

Nothing can be done because it's too profitable and too essential to the sham of a government we have. We all play our parts just as we're supposed to.

STFU with your useless cynicism. You sound like a loser who's already given up. We don't need people like you.

Literally attempting anything is better than doing nothing. The least we can do is improve education by having local politicians put more tax spending into public schools, so as to develop less defeatist losers, or less racists, less fascists, less religious fundamentalists, less tankies.
- I understand that you need hope to navigate this awful world. I don't. I see this for what it is; a lost cause.
  
  Get back to me when those politicians start doing what you think needs to be done. I'll wait.
  
  You could at least not comment on it and go rot off to the side somewhere while us grown ups try to fix all the problems for you.
  
  Oh please. I'm older than you I'm sure and I've been around long enough to know that the system is working as it's intended to. Your indignation, while admirable, is wasted.
  
  the system is working as it’s intended to.
  
  sounds like you like to settle. I don't.
  
  Ok, kid. Call me when you make some meaningful changes.
  
  meaningful change would mean that you wouldn't need a phone call to see it.
  
  Well, if you're even in the US.
  
  (and yes, I got the sarcasm of your post, but I don't give a shit and I'm gonna respond to you anyway.)
  
  Hey, if you've given up already, would you mind voting third party so as to help disrupt the two party system? Kthxbye.
  
  Voting 3rd party is a wasted vote in a 2 party system. Granted any vote in a system with all the outdated and corrupt practices we have is practically wasted...
  
  It's only a waste because everyone thinks so. That's propaganda from the parties on top to keep themselves on top.
  
  Math does not check out
  
  Voting 3rd party helps the fascists.
  
  I assume you're referring to Trump. I do not want Trump as president. I will not support Trump's candidacy. But he was president for a whole 4 years and didn't cause major permanent damage to the country. If he somehow manages to become president again, I don't think he's going to destroy the country.
  
  On the other hand, if the blue party automatically gets a pass on every candidate because everyone thinks it's them or fascism, they are functionally a one party system. That's how you get blue fascists.
  
  Despite what they say, not every election is the most important election in American history. They've been playing that game for a while. The reason they say it so much is because it gets people thinking in the short term, and in the short term, the dichotomy prevails.
  
  Is the blue party actually good for the country? Or are they just better than the opposition? Do you want a party that will actually dare to stand up to big oil? Because despite their talking points, the blue party isn't doing all that much about it, are they?
  
  If you want to be able to vote for something instead of just against the enemy, you need more choices than just the enemy and the blue-flavored people who tell you they're so much different. Vote third party and show them that we won't play their game anymore.
  
  Trump did and does continue to damage this country. Your dismissal of that fact negates anything else you said.
  
  That's why I specified major permanent damage. I'm talking existential threats to the country itself, not unrest that will pass in time.