Please, for the love of God, VOTE!
Please, for the love of God, VOTE!
I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
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I'm voting for a third party instead of the slightly less evil fascist. I recommend y'all do as well. Dr. West and Claudia La Cruz are good options.
If you're not in a swing state I recommend you do the same.
so... you're voting for the more evil fascist, then.
vote for trump = vote for trump and his genocide
no vote = also vote for trump and trump fascist genocide
vote third party = still trump sweetie
vote biden = not a vote for biden or his own brand of genocide, apparently
got it.
before you get mad at me enabling fascism, I am not even amerikkkan, and I hope your country burns to the ground, fascist scum
did you read the original post at all?
I did, and all I could surmise was that you mistake liberals for leftists.
I know shit like Lenin is too much, but you could at least read MLK, the whitewashed saint of liberalism, to see what he really thought of your ilk (particularly, the letter from Birmingham jail)
You hope America burns to the ground? What country are you in that you think wouldn't be affected by the collapse of the United States? Power vacuums are dangerous as fuck.
Most of the third world would be better off without US Imperialism.
Yeah of course. But it's messy as hell for a decade or two while the dust settles.
I was just telling the "I hope your colony burns to the ground" person to be careful with that monkey paw.
And then theyd get chinese or russian imperialism. Geopolitics is a thing whether u ignore it or not. The US at least is maleable and every year i hear the leftists get louder and more numerous.
That's pure prediction, and additionally assumes Americans should decide for the world who is in power, rather than the exploited third world determining for themselves.
The US is not maleable. It serves the interests of the Bourgoisie, which is why the US gov has been getting more right wing despite rising popularity of leftists.
Its not prediction, russia repeatedly has called Ukraine a stepping stone. I would appreciate it if it werent.
It is maleable, if it werent, the right wouldnt expe d the dollars and effort it does into keeping voters from casting their votes.
And we got biden over trump, as u said, the youth is more left, and the old generation is dying.
Mutual aid, direct action, votes for biden to keep the fascist out, and solidarity.
It is prediction, and you completely brushed aside your inner bias when I said America should cease their Imperialism and let the third world decide for themselves what they want.
It is not malleable, Democrats are right wing as well, just not fascist. You cannot get leftist change by voting for right wingers.
Biden is not left. He's not as far-right as Trump, of course, but even if Biden were an immortal dictator America would never move left. There are more leftists now, yes, but not in office.
Mutual Aid and Direct Action are great, but you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Biden winning is leftward movement, and not right wing stagnation.
I say this as someone who voted for Biden and likely will again, read Reform or Revolution.
The crux of my arguments on here remains,
Direct action, mutual aid, voting, and solidarity. Pursue as many of the options as u can, but it is naive to pretend u wont have a much harder time under an open fascist.
oh no, my economy
continues to coup the third world and colonize the middle east
Who here is talking about the economy?
oh dont play coy
your "say vague implications, then backtrack when called out because you never used those exact words" shtick is almost as good as jordan peterson's.
no, you didn't talk specifically about economy, but it was implied I should not be cheering for amerikkka's fall because I probably live in a western country and would end up worse than I am - economically. Which is probably true. But also, both amerikkka's as well as my country's wealth is built on extreme exploitation of the third world, and the world at large would be better if we didn't exist.
Maybe you're replying to someone else? My comment was that power vacuums are dangerous as fuck. Not sure how someone thinks "dangerous as fuck" is about the economy?
not exactly true. don't discount europe's contributions to medicine, science, physics, chemistry, etc.
but yeah, the western world has been exploitative as fuck. we learned it from the romans, who colonized the shit out of us. it's a vicious cycle, but i think if we can just beat the fascists and corporations, we are the verge of a new enlightenment.
ROMANS? "colonized" by ROMANS????? lmao
nationalism and the concept of countries didn't truly exist until like 1700s. Sure, there were some special cases like Poland which has been a "country" (or rather, a united kingdom) since the 10th century, but even for these outliers, the idea of a nation comes waaaaaay after the fucking romans have existed, please stop embarassing yourself.
And europe's contributions to... "medicine, science, phycics, chemistry, etc", even if we discount the ones that were straight up stolen, is a non-sequitir when we are talking about what europe at large has done to its subjects. Do you think that advances in, for example, electric power production, are worth the countless colonial deaths in middle africa? Europe is pretty fascist still, living on the blood of the third world
and, just to send this one home: fuck you, western chauvinist, I hope your life mirrors that of the global lumpenproles, who have no choice but to take your country's neoliberal "fixes"
ROMANS? “colonized” by ROMANS??? lmao
Listen here, you little shit. why don't you get back to me when you finish reading the history book instead of commenting when you're only halfway through? in case you missed it, the ENTIRE HISTORY of civilization is a long, continuous story of lesser peoples being conquered by larger peoples (whether in size or technological superiority). every tribe of people, at some point in their history, had a moment of 'first contact' with a larger, more 'advanced' civilization, and it almost ALWAYS ends with the underdog getting the shaft. europe is no exception. germanic tribes, prior to contact with the romans, were not so different from any other 'primitive' people. the romans colonized most of europe, which in turn spread roman technology and culture (hence the term 'romance' languages).
nationalism and the concept of countries didn’t truly exist until like 1700s. Sure, there were some special cases like Poland which has been a “country” (or rather, a united kingdom) since the 10th century, but even for these outliers, the idea of a nation comes waaaaaay after the fucking romans have existed, please stop embarassing yourself.
I never used the term country because the concept is bigger than the idea of the modern country. you really need to stop going on the offensive until you calm down some, junior.
And europe’s contributions to… “medicine, science, phycics, chemistry, etc”, even if we discount the ones that were straight up stolen, is a non-sequitir when we are talking about what europe at large has done to its subjects. Do you think that advances in, for example, electric power production, are worth the countless colonial deaths in middle africa? Europe is pretty fascist still, living on the blood of the third world
first of all, the romans themselves learned a lot of what they knew from the near east, which were actually the first conquering city states - persian, babylonian, achaemenid, etc. history makes no attempt to hide the fact that most western society was greatly influenced by the near east and arab cultures, so using the term 'stolen' is dishonest, (along with calling europe out as being the worst colonizers). any actual scholar understands that the entire history of technology is the concept of 'standing on the shoulders of giants', meaning owing their achievements to the great minds that came before them, no matter where they came from.
and, just to send this one home: fuck you, western chauvinist, I hope your life mirrors that of the global lumpenproles, who have no choice but to take your country’s neoliberal “fixes”
fuck you too, kid. i guarantee you wouldn't say that shit to my face and walk away with all your teeth still in your skull. i'm just as radical as you are, son. i'm trying to tear down capitalism just like everyone that understands what the fuck is going on. you need to watch your mouth and pick up on who your allies are. just because i'm not grossly misinformed about world history doesn't mean we're not on the same side.
I think he was being as glib as the person he was responding to, to mirror the "Biden or fascism" dynamic.
nah, I genuinely hope amerikkka falls. I live in a western country and would feel the consequences of that fall, but that's a tiny price to pay for the Great Satan to die
i'm not even american lmao
so you are wasting energy to help democrats with the ninth "most important US election ever" for FREE??????? holyyy shiiiiit
unlike you, i have friends all over the world that i care for, including a good bunch residing in the US right now.
Nope and if you don't understand there are more than two options that's a you problem. 😜
There's only two plausible winners.
A dilemma doesn't go away if you wish really hard for a third option.
The fact you don't understand there are only two options is everyone's problem.
There are literally more options. It's people like you that prevent a third option from becoming mainstream. Do you understand that??
If you got every person on Lemmy to vote for a single third party, you would still only have single-digit percent support. A third party will never get the popular vote, as long as we have first past the post voting.
All right and if you got every single person on lemmy to vote for the dems or the Republicans, it wouldn't change the outcome of the election. Are you saying this argument determines absolutely nothing? Because I agree lol.
Do you know that the popular vote doesn't determine the outcome of US presidential elections? Cuz it sounds like you don't understand that. I'm totally for switching to rank choice voting. Sadly we need elected politicians to do that sooooo not really productive 🤷
If we vote in some third party candidates who are actual leftist, they might enact rank choice voting. So maybe start there.
Almost no one here would vote for Trump, so you're just pulling votes away from Biden which might be enough to influence the results of the election. A few percent could be all that makes the difference.
A second ago convincing everyone on lemmy wasn't "even a single digit percent" now it could be a few percent and change the result of the election🤣? Do you see why I think you are ignorant and dramatic?
Like dude I get it trump and his fascist cronies are scary as fuck. But My state will not suddenly become contested in the 2024 election. I guarantee it. It will be blue. My vote for a third party just slowly puts their number up over time to get us out of this mess. The more people who can do that the better. Obviously if you're in a swing state or state that could become contested. Yeah, vote for the lesser evil. I'm not in that situation. If you're not able to grasp that, that's your problem.
But My state will not suddenly become contested in the 2024 election.
Then arguing on Lemmy to vote for anyone won't change anything in your state, but not everyone on Lemmy is in your state. If enough people in swing states are convinced to vote for a third party, it could undermine the Democrats and hand the election to Trump.
only have single-digit percent support
Last year the Democrats won the popular vote by 4.5%. Single digit is 0-9. Either you can't read or you're arguing in bad faith.
The popular vote does not determine elections. I don't know how many times I have to tell people that. Do you know Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016 but lost the election? The popular vote does not matter. It doesn't seem you have the ability to learn new information, so I'm going to stop replying to you. I hope you one day learn that you don't have to speak on topics you don't understand. Good luck little buddy✌️
Given that 2016 was decided by 20k votes spread across three states, id say that yeah, every person on Lemmy might swing the election.
The spoiler effect is real, and ur not going to get a chance for third party candidates to ever matter if the raging turnip were to win.
Ok buddy. This topic and level of nuance seems to be above your comprehension level. I'm going to leave you with a few facts. I won't be responding to you after this.
I voted third party in 2016. Jill Stein.
Hillary Clinton won my state in 2016 easily. It's a very blue state.
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016 but lost the election.
I hope you spend some time to fill in the gaps of information you don't know. I hope you one day learn that it's okay not to know everything and to not pretend like you know more than you do. Best of luck ✌️
under normal circumstances, i would be inclined to agree. however, your country's voting system is anything but normal.
i'm afraid that your view of the available options is nothing more than misguided.
you're throwing away what little choice you have. you're pretending to make a statement and pretending to support the party that you vote for, knowing full well that they won't win.
good luck with trump, my friend; i will be watching in disappointment.
Lmao fuck off you condescending dumbass. First of all It makes sense that you're not American because you don't understand why this is okay to do anywhere but a swing state. You obviously do not understand where electoral system . Your ignorance is showing.
ah, showing your true colours, at last!
Yes, I'm annoyed because you don't even understand my country's voting system or why it would matter what state you live in when it comes to voting yet you want to mansplain it to me. You are insufferable lol. I wish men like you who think that they can just guess the correct thing which shut the f****** when someone who knows what they're talking about is speaking. I'm not going to reply to you again. 🖕
i love how you now decide to censor your profanity
A vote for Biden is a signal to the Democratic party that we like what they're doing. There is no incentive for Democrats to change if we keep voting them in out of fear. Right now they are just incentived to be slightly better than the proud White Nationalist dude, which is an extremely low bar.
Democrats are unable to go further left because that risks losing votes to the GOP.
In a 2-party system, you don't get the choice you want to make. Instead, you have to vote against what you like least, in order to motivate that party to move. You vote dem, so the GOP is forced to change. The parties grow closer together, giving the democrats room to move further left.
It's a terrible system. The first candidate that wants to do election reform should be voted in ASAP.
lmao did the gop change or just get more conservative after two Obama administrations?
Obama was not exactly a progressive, was he? The GOP moved right because Trump pulled them there, and there was a voter base to use. They also had the opportunity, given that Clinton was not as popular as hoped. The media has been shifting rightwards as well. And they will keep moving right as long as they believe it will win them elections.
Well we get to have a monoparty system in the inverse, but i guess technically ceasing to exist would be a change for dems.
That's your right. You aren't even required to understand that the consequences of your actions are that you're making it easier for a guy who said he wants to be a Dictator, a guy who said he "wants to finish the problem" with regards to Palestinian genocide, a guy who has probably just been outright purchased by a conglomerate of foreign influence.
You're giving that guy a helping hand.
And that's your right.
Biden and his foolish decisions are giving that guy a helping hand. Try telling Biden to stop being a fucking moron if he wants to win the election.
only a vote for a candidate helps that candidate
No
its true. if no one votes for a candidate, it doesnt matter how manyvotes any other candidate gets.
That's not what you said. Your original "only" indicates that you think that votes + splitting your opponents votes isn't a strategy.
If splitting votes didn't matter, there wouldn't be so much effort put into gerrymandering. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
Voting is a practical, strategic act, not an ideological one.
>Voting is a practical, strategic act, not an ideological one.
every act is morally good, amoral, or immoral. it's immoral to vote for bad people.
you may think ends justify the means. you may think your strategy is better or more moral. i disagree.
No, I'm sorry, that's dangerously naïve, and a self-serving, solipsistic moral panic. How old are you?
If we used RCV or anything better that winner-take-all, that would be different, or if we had a parliamentary system. But we don't.
it’s immoral to vote for bad people.
One could argue that it's immoral to not vote in a way that prevents the worst choice from winning.
so I will make you a deal: I'll vote my conscience, and you vote yours.
and in the meantime we organize, and after, we organize
I'm vegan, so I never get to truly vote my conscience and won't be able to until someone takes a stand against factory farming. I'm not interested in debating factory farms here nor am I making a direct comparison to genocide, just noting that it is a significant moral issue for me and has never been up for a vote, just as the genocide in Gaza isn't up for a vote.
it seems like your going to vote for someone. I say vote for who you think you should.
>If splitting votes didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be so much effort put into gerrymandering.
you're falling prey here to a logical fallacy called equivocation. splitting is used in two distinct senses in electoral politics, and you are taking one of its uses and purporting that it supports the validity of the other use. it does not AND the other use is misleading at best, but i believe it's genuinely dishonest and manipulative.
Explain and distinguish both, then. I genuinely don't see it.
on the one hand there is gerrymandering which has the effect of splitting up voting blocks.
on the other hand there is the lie that votes are owned by or owed to only two parties, and any vote outside of those two parties is stolen by the so-called third parties.
in fact, the votes belong to voters, and it is up to them to decide who they want to vote for, and it is up to the politicians to try to win those votes.
Well, let me know how that goes. I'm betting you're in for a lifetime of disappointment. I assume you haven't seen enough elections to understand that yet. I've been there. But as I merit no further response, and though your approach frustrates me, I wish you well.
> Your original “only” indicates that you think that votes + splitting your opponents votes isn’t a strategy.
you are putting words inmy mouth. i explained what i said. i'm the authority on what i meant.
I'm putting your own words in your mouth. I'm sorry you refuse to accept that splitting opponents votes works. Good luck.
Bro, I live in one of the bluest states. It will not go red. If I were in a swing state I'd understand where you're coming from. If you don't understand the difference then this conversation isnt productive.
100%. Blue MAGA's going to come out in force on this thread. If you're in CA or similar "will go blue no matter what" state, there's no reason for principled leftists to vote for Biden. Same with "will go red no matter what" states.
There is this notion that most states are "solid red or blue"... except we keep getting surprised in elections, and polling has been shit since at least the 2016 election. I don't want people in TX giving otherwise Biden votes to some 3rd party when the state as a whole has been trying to become more blue.
Trump's new slogan is going to be "Take America Back". You can buy the merch on AliExpress right now. His followers don't interpret that to mean "by voting".
Save the 3rd party virtue signals for a time when we're not on the verge of a civil war. The message we should all be sending right now is unified support for the guy who can keep Trump out of the oval office.
Do take note how aggressive these ppl/accounts get at the notions of ppl voting blue.
We need solidarity, not more division. Go vote for the infinitely less shit candidate, then pursue whatever additional means u feel make changes happen. If ur wasting ur time yelling at ppl for voting or calling them stupid, ur just sowing division.
Ayyye exactly 👈😎. Glad you're on the same page stranger.