6d ago

A tax on people-pleasing

185 comments

We should end tipping culture. Wages should never be optional, and anyone working full time should be paid by their employer a living wage as described by FDR when the minimum wage was created.
Until we end tipping culture, tip your servers. You're not some edgy social justice warrior by quoting Mr. Pink and acting like keeping your two dollars is somehow helping. You're just an asshole.
- The whole point of that scene was that even a room of psychotic killers was disgusted by the idea of not tipping.
  
  It's amazing how many people saw it and said, "You know, the crazy-eyed murderer makes a good point."
  
  A person who does something wrong can still be right about other things. Tipping is an idiotic system.
- Until we end tipping culture, tip your servers.
  If everyone continues to tip by default, then I believe this will delay or prevent an end to the culture. If servers don't have an issue with tipping (because everyone does so), then there is less reason to support change.
  If one person doesn't tip:
  You're just an asshole.
  If a large majority doesn't tip:
  Maybe there is a problem with tipping by default?
  
  That's not how anything works. If you want change, you need to vote for it. You're not going to change the entire economic structure of the whole restaurant industry by being a selfish asshole. You're just punishing the people who handle your food and making life harder for everyone.
  
  Who do I vote for specifically to end tipping culture?
  
  I don't know where you live, but start local. And in the meantime, stop going to restaurants.
  
  Exactly! Don't stiff the worker, stiff the business
  
  It definitely does not work in an environment where lazy aggressive apatheists will support a system they don't like by claiming it can't be changed.
  
  First day on Earth? Welcome. Mind the dog shit, some people don't pick up after themselves.
  
  If the large majority doesn't tip, wait staff will become homeless. That's the only "message" you're sending. Restaurant owners won't care in the slightest.
  Don't patronize organizations that don't pay their employees. This is the message, you're claiming you want to send. You have to take money away from the people who set the policy, not the worker who has to live under the policy. Find restaurants that refuse tips and spend your money there. (Or just don't go out.)
  Until we end tipping, tip your servers.
  
  ...not the worker who has to live under the policy.
  They don't have to work there.
  
  They do, their alternatives are being homeless, or working at another company that's very likely managed the exact same way.
  The lack of a social safety net or sufficient welfare, empowers exploitative labour conditions.
  
  I was once poor and facing homelessness and I intentionally avoided tipped positions and only applied for jobs where I was paid more than $2.10/hr. I got one of those jobs.
  I'm not insinuating that everyone can do this, but I think most people can, considering the vast majority of mininum-wage jobs are not tipped-wage jobs. I don't think most people feel forced to take a tipped-wage job.
  
  They do, their alternatives are...
  So they don't.
  
  Are you advocating for no more servers? Or are you suggesting that only the desperate should do the job? Or is your point that someone who chooses to be victimized by society should simply accept their rung on the ladder?
  
  Restaurants are the backstop for a lot of people that have nowhere else to work. They aren't worried about a spotty background check, they won't run a drug screening, they just care that you show up on time.
- The single best thing people can do to end tipping culture is to just stop tipping.
  Vote for social safety nets or make donations to care for those who will be harmed by this.
  But right now it's people like you that are perpetuating tipping culture.
  And yes, I am an asshole - but it's not solely because of my stance on tipping.
  
  Nah, it's a known cultural fact that tipped wages are offloaded directly onto the consumer. Not paying them is refusing to participate in the game of capitalism in the worst possible way. By withholding the wages of your fellow worker but continuing to do business with their employer, you are just increasing the value extracted from them.
  If you don't want to tip, don't go to tipped restaurants.
  That's it. That's the only ethical play to avoid tipping. Don't participate at all, don't fund the unethical business model at all. As it stands, not tipping doesn't threaten the business model - they still get paid.
  
  Lol, I'm sure your reasoning is really going to make a difference to the person depending on tips to make rent. And I'm sure the owner is just going to feel terrible that his server didn't get compensated.
  Maybe you should just avoid giving your business to restaurants that exploit the tip based system? You aren't ending tipping culture by not tipping, you're just taking advantage of workers just as much as the owners.
  
  If a person doesn't tip, their server doesn't get tipped.
  If that same person avoids giving business to restaurants that exploit the tip based system, the same server still doesn't get tipped.
  You're not ending tipping culture by tipping, either. Just saying.
  
  the same server still doesn't get tipped.
  They may have more time or availability for someone who does tip, plus they aren't wasting their labour on someone.
  You're not ending tipping culture by tipping, either. Just saying.
  Yeah, but I never claimed I was attempting to end tipping culture by wasting people's time and effort.
  Again, why not just support businesses that don't rely on tipping to pay their staff?
  
  the same server still doesn’t get tipped.
  They may have more time or availability for someone who does tip, plus they aren’t wasting their labour on someone.
  Oh, wow. Suddenly they're not being paid at all only because one person doesn't tip? How does that work?
  Yeah, but I never claimed I was attempting to end tipping culture by wasting people’s time and effort.
  Not tipping wastes nobody's time. That's not how time works. You did say "You aren’t ending tipping culture by not tipping, you’re just taking advantage of workers just as much as the owners" which I turned around on you, though. Also, what you said here is wrong because I don't exploit anybody's labour by not tipping since I'm not getting paid to eat out. You understand that.
  Again, why not just support businesses that don’t rely on tipping to pay their staff?
  Why didn't I think of that and not do it for the last 20 years? You really opened my eyes to the most obvious thing ever! I already don't perpetuate a system that exploits workers. Maybe you should too.
  
  Oh, wow. Suddenly they're not being paid at all only because one person doesn't tip? How does that work?
  Lol, I'm guessing you've never worked in a restaurant before? If you are taking one of their tables and they are having to serve you, and you don't tip....they don't get money for that table and whatever time you used it for. If you hadn't taken up the table, they may have gotten a customer who wasn't an asshole.
  Not tipping wastes nobody's time
  It wastes the servers time, but you don't seem to think that matters.
  which I turned around on you, though.
  How, by being wrong?
  I don't exploit anybody's labour by not tipping since I'm not getting paid to eat out. You understand that.
  Tipping is wrong because it turns over the responsibility of labour expense to the customer. You, the customer are denying that labour expense and leaving the labourer unpaid for their labour. Meaning you are participating and taking advantage of their labour.
  Why didn't I think of that and not do it for the last 20 years?
  Lol, you are still participating in the tip culture if you give your business to places that rely on tipping, but don't tip. The owner still gets paid and doesn't give a shit if the server does or not.
  And if you are saying you don't go to places that accept tips, then why are you even fucking talking to me? My whole point was that people who don't like tipping culture shouldn't go to places that accept tips.
  
  I know how tipping works, thank you. If I'm not being tipped for waiting a table, I still get paid hourly wages, meaning I get money for that table or any other I wait during my work hours. If I hadn't taken that table, I would still make hourly wages. I can't believe you don't know that. You're not just acting obtuse, are you?
  Not tipping wastes nobody's time. Servers are paid by the hour. Hours are time. Servers do not get to leave earlier when they receive tips. Do you think restaurant owners waste servers' time by underpaying them? Be honest.
  You know what turning something around on someone means. If you're unsure what happened, please make use of the scrolling up technology and use your eyes and brain to read what it says there. You already agreed that tipping doesn't end tipping culture, so your act doesn't really make sense now.
  I don't employ servers, so it is in no way my responsibility to pay their wages. I'm responsible for paying for the food and service that I receive. The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really. It's fine if you're OK with picking up someone's employer's tab, I won't. Just don't confuse who's exploiting who just because you so desperately want to shift the blame away from the restaurant owner. Why are you even doing that? You're in a situation where one guy says "hey, you're going to work for me full time but I'm only paying you a fraction even though I receive the full labour. If you're lucky, my customers donate some of their money to your living expenses. Most do, the others are huge assholes, right?" and you go "right, that's very fair and sensible. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Mr Moneybags! Oh, the system surely sucks but apart from shaming customers into shelling out for what you systematically withhold, there's just nothing that could be done :(" Does your family own a restaurant or something?
  What part of "I haven't frequented tipped restaurants in 20 years" did you not understand? Obviously I have an opinion on tipping, how are you having trouble understanding that I would voice it in a public forum when that is the topic? You made a shitty point and I commented on it, why would not going to tipped restaurants keep me from doing that, exactly? Your logic is fucked up all around.
  
  If I'm not being tipped for waiting a table, I still get paid hourly wages, meaning I get money for that table or any other I wait during my work hours.
  The hourly rate for most servers is less than minimum wage, which is already too low to make a living off of. Like I said, I don't think you know how this works. You can legally pay a server $2.13 an hour in most states so long as what ever tips they make the rest of the day average to $7.25 an hour.
  Do you think restaurant owners waste servers' time by underpaying them?
  I think they take advantage of their labour, just as people like yourself do.
  You already agreed that tipping doesn't end tipping culture, so your act doesn't really make sense now.
  Act? My claim is that if you don't like tipping, don't go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living.
  I don't employ servers, so it is in no way my responsibility to pay their wages. I'm responsible for paying for the food and service that I receive. The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really.
  Lol, it's also very simple to see that the system we currently utilize is inadequate and is geared towards maximizing profits to the owner, and that is not the fault of the server who is just trying to make a living.
  It's fine if you're OK with picking up someone's employer's tab, I won't. Just don't confuse who's exploiting who just because you so desperately want to shift the blame away from the restaurant owner.
  I don't tip because I'm fine with "picking up the owners tab". I tip because I know that the only person who loses in the situation is the worker. The owner doesn't care if you tip or don't tip, he gets his money either way. I'm not shifting the blame from the owner, they are of course exploiting the worker. However, so are you if someone is working in the expectation of compensation and then receives none. I'm guessing you don't tell the waiter you don't believe in tipping before the service.....?
  the system surely sucks but apart from shaming customers into shelling out for what you systematically withhold, there's just nothing that could be done :(" Does your family own a restaurant or something?
  Or .....you could go to the many restaurants that don't rely on tips to pay their workers. That is the only way to actually fight tipping culture, by rewarding your patronage to an owner who utilizes a labour system you believer in.
  An no, my family doesn't own a restaurant. I used to work as a chef while I worked my way through school, and I know how feast or famine things can be for people working up front. I've known people who couldn't make rent because they had a bad day. I have basic empathy for my fellow workers.
  "I haven't frequented tipped restaurants in 20 years"
  You said you haven't participated in tipping culture for 20 years, based on your other shitty opinions, I figured that could mean you just haven't tipped for 20 years. Also, I don't really think someone who defends stiffing wait staff so vehemently online would really have a problem with taking advantage of their labour in real life and lying about it on the web.
  To be honest you just seem like a person incapable of empathy, like some sort of libertarian sleezball. Anyways, have fun being a miserable ass.
  
  You can legally pay a server $2.13 an hour in most states so long as what ever tips they make the rest of the day average to $7.25 an hour.
  You seem to be either confused or unable to stay on topic. My point was that servers are paid by the hour which you confirm by stating the exact rates. What is your point? That they don't get paid a lot? I'm aware, it's why I don't go to these places. Is this supposed to somehow guilt me into wanting to tip? It's not my responsibility to subsidize wages, I don't employ anyone so I don't pay wages and I'm not going to pay indirect wages either. If a server doesn't make enough money, that's between them and their employer like in literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) every other industry. It's not different just because you carry plates. In fact, if you think carrying plates somehow makes the customer responsible for subsidizing wages, why not just cut out the middle man? Why don't I come up to you on the street saying "hey, can you give me money, please? My employer doesn't pay me enough and you'd be a huge asshole if you didn't give me money."? You would rightfully tell me to fuck off. Why is it different if I brought you food first? Because you have been duped into thinking it is by greedy restaurant owners who exploited the goodwill of customers and the labour of their staff. "Oh, it's just the system, nothing we can do! We have to conform to the system because the owners don't care!" is exactly what greedy restaurants owners are hoping you'll say and you perpetuate this system by repeating it over and over.
  I think they take advantage of their labour, just as people like yourself do.
  Please explain how I'm taking advantage of anyone by going to a restaurant and paying for the food and service I receive. Then, please explain why I'm not taking advantage of anyone by going to McDonald's and paying for the food and service I receive. Thirdly, please explain how I'm taking advantage of anyone by not having frequented a tipped restaurant in the last 20 year, which I already told you, twice. In your red-faced anger over me not holding the bag for restaurant owners you seem to forget what has already been discussed.
  Act?
  Yes, the obtuse act you're putting on. You know servers are paid by the hour, yet ask questions that imply you don't. You know what "turning something around on someone" means, yet you pretend you don't understand what happened. Not like I didn't explain that to you in my last comment which you read and understood. For some reason you're still keeping up the act.
  My claim is that if you don’t like tipping, don’t go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living.
  That's not a claim, it's a demand. And you've made it numerous times already and every time I told you that my point is "tipping also doesn't stop tipping culture". I already don't go to restaurants where servers rely on tips to make a living. You know that and still you repeat your "claim". Do you not understand what I'm telling you? I'll spell it out for you: Yes, don't go to restaurants underpaying their staff. Also, don't pretend you want to stop tipping culture when you actively perpetuate it. I know you're not stupid and understand perfectly well what I'm telling you. Please act accordingly.
  The owner is responsible to pay for the labour they receive. Rather simple in concept, really.
  Lol, it’s also very simple to see that the system we currently utilize is inadequate and is geared towards maximizing profits to the owner, and that is not the fault of the server who is just trying to make a living.
  Yes, it's not the servers' fault, it's the underpaying owners' fault. We are in agreement. What is your point?
  Although, I will concede that the servers are to blame a little bit as well. Time and time again when you ask servers whether or not they want to keep working in the current system, a majority says yes, they do because on a good day they can take home a lot of money. So, from my perspective it looks like there's a scummy owner who pays too little, the server who calls me an asshole for not making up the difference while doing nothing at all to change anything and me who can either subsidize a shitty owner or get called an asshole. Somehow I don't see how I'm the asshole in this situation just because the owner and the server decided so. If an employee is unhappy with their pay, they need to take it up with their employer instead of shifting the blame to someone who doesn't employ them. Again, this is not unusual and it's how it works in every single other industry. Every one of them, without exception. I see no reason to treat this industry any differently, do you?
  I don’t tip because I’m fine with “picking up the owners tab”. I tip because I know that the only person who loses in the situation is the worker.
  And you. You lose. Money. Money that should have come out of the employer's pocket.
  I’m not shifting the blame from the owner, they are of course exploiting the worker.
  Great, now explain why I'm the asshole for not making up for what the owner withholds. That callcenter agent I talked to about my phone bill is in the exact same situation as the worker in your example. Why am I an asshole for not subsidizing a server but not an asshole for not subsidizing the callcenter agent? It smells a bit of a double standard to me. Please explain why you think it's not.
  I’m guessing you don’t tell the waiter you don’t believe in tipping before the service…?
  This will come as a total surprise to you as I hid that fact very well until now: I haven't frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years. Do you tell the guy at McDonald's how important it is to subsidize low wages out of your own pocket before the service? Why not?
  Or …you could go to the many restaurants that don’t rely on tips to pay their workers. That is the only way to actually fight tipping culture, by rewarding your patronage to an owner who utilizes a labour system you believer in.
  What a great idea! If only I could turn back the last 20 years and not go to tipped restaurants... Hey, wait a minute! I already did that! Sorry, now I made you look a little stupid for suggesting that. I really should have told you earlier that I haven't frequented a tipped restaurant in 20 years.
  Love your wording, by the way! "Restaurants that rely on tips to pay their workers" sounds so much better than "restaurants who systematically exploit their workers". Restaurants don't pay workers with tips. Customers do. After the already paid for the food and services they received.
  I used to work as a chef while I worked my way through school, and I know how feast or famine things can be for people working up front. I’ve known people who couldn’t make rent because they had a bad day. I have basic empathy for my fellow workers.
  In your basic empathy, did you ever request better conditions for you and the fellow workers you hold so dear? Or did you say nothing and perpetuate the system that treated you so cruelly? Who could watch close acquaintences unable to make rent and not open their mouth? Do you think your ex-co-workers will at least be grateful that you call people on the internet assholes for not thinking tipping stops tipping culture?
  You said you haven’t participated in tipping culture for 20 years, based on your other shitty opinions, I figured that could mean you just haven’t tipped for 20 years.
  No you didn't. Let me refresh your memory:
  Again, why not just support businesses that don’t rely on tipping to pay their staff?
  Why didn’t I think of that and not do it for the last 20 years?
  You're trying to paint me something bad because you have no strategy of justifying calling other people assholes for thinking tipping perpetuates tipping culture. If someone doesn't accept being called an asshole, you have no way of convincing them because you know the system is shit and the customer isn't actually to blame for the owner's refusal to pay what is due. So you're making up shit so you can get some insults in. Why? I already do what you demand, I don't go to tipped restaurants. What else do you want? You agree that tipping doesn't stop tipping culture. Where's the disconnect?
  To be honest you just seem like a person incapable of empathy, like some sort of libertarian sleezball. Anyways, have fun being a miserable ass.
  Remember that we agree that tipping culture is shit? You have no reason to insult me like that other than the ones you made up in your head. You agree that tipping doesn't stop tipping culture - my entire point. Yet you talked yourself into such a rage that you think these insults are an appropriate response. You started right off the bat with accusing me of wasting people's time and effort with no indication I ever did so or even think it's a justified thing to do. I made a statement you agree with but you reject the truth in it so deeply that your only reaction is making wild accusations and throwing insults.
  Please take this opportunity to reflect on your beliefs and how you treat people who actually agree with you but have a slightly different point of view.
  
  You seem to be either confused or unable to stay on topic. My point was that servers are paid by the hour which you confirm by stating the exact rates. What is your point? That they don't get paid a lot? I'm aware, it's why I don't go to these places.
  So you agree with my original claim.....? What the hell have you been bitching about then?
  Is this supposed to somehow guilt me into wanting to tip?
  No, my entire point was that if you don't want to tip, don't go to a place where the employees rely on tips to make a living. If you do go to a place where they rely on tips, you should tip even if you don't like the concept.
  If a server doesn't make enough money, that's between them and their employer like in literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) every other industry.
  Yeah, because systemic poverty is a problem solved by personal responsibility......
  A lot of people would love to not work for tips, but never had the resources or education to get a better career.
  Oh, it's just the system, nothing we can do! We have to conform to the system because the owners don't care!" is exactly what greedy restaurants owners are hoping you'll say and you perpetuate this system by repeating it over and over.
  Or....like I originally said, don't support those restaurants. Better yet, support politician and unions that aim to protect workers. My whole point is that we shouldn't make it the workers problem.
  I'm not even going to read the rest of you strawman argument, you've already agreed with my original claim. The rest of what you've said is just cognitive dissonance. You have been simultaneously saying it's not okay to frequent tip based restaurant, but have also been defending stiffing waiters. So it seems like you are just angry and confused, I don't think talking about this with you anymore is going to be productive in any sense.
  
  Bullshit, and that's a dangerously naive perspective. If everyone stopped tipping tomorrow, the only people that would be hurting are the people who serve.
  All labor regulations exist because there will always be someone desperate enough to do anything for a paycheck. Child laborers. Prostututes. Dallas Cowboys. People will do anything for money, and the only way to prevent exploitation is with regulation. The "free market" will turn your bones into paste before it provides a living wage to laborers.
  Capitalism is an unbalanced power dynamic that relies on an excess of desperation. If people didn't need to sell their time, they'd never sell it for less than it is worth to employers. So if everyone agreed to just stop tipping, service would get much worse, and servers would be working for $2.10 an hour plus kitchen scraps.
  At least we agree on uour last point.
  
  That's not. How. Tipped. Wages. Work.
  Why do people insist that you get paid 2.10/hr? That's 2.10/hr + Tips IF AND ONLY IF that wage equals more than minimum wage. That's how it's always been.
  If minimum wage is 7.25 (in a lot of states, it still is), then they are paid 7.25x40 OR 2.10x40+tips, whichever of those two numbers is higher. They CANNOT LEGALLY PAY YOU less than minimum wage.
  So when people say "If you stopped tipping today, all that would be hurt is the tipped workers" I'm less inclined to believe them if they also parrot absolutely false information without a second thought.
  But I do agree with you, tipped wage jobs suck, and the tips seem to be the only benefit. So, let's ensure they get a proper wage from their employer, stop tipping, and if service sucks until things are figured out, I guess I'm eating at home or eating shitty-service burgers because I'd rather the system get un-fucked than continue to engage in that system.
  
  You've never worked a tipped job, have you? Estimate the percentage of employers who pay minimum wage if tips are too low. Throw out any number.
  
  "You've never worked a tipped job have you?"
  Proceeds to describe an illegal situation
  
  Wow, you've never worked a job before, huh?
  
  If everyone stopped tipping tomorrow, the only people that would be hurting are the people who serve.
  Who would then not want to work in those places that depends entirely of tipping. And then it hurts the owners of those places.
  How are you unable to realise this? It is all connected.
  
  That's literally the rest of the comment. Did you just stop reading there?
- Calling it culture sounds a bit weird to me it's an exploitative loophole that's illegal in cultured places.
  
  That's fair. We should call it regulation and labor laws. Minimum wage laws specifically enshrine tipping as a foundation of server wages, and closing that loophole is a necessary first step.
- Well in Australia we don't have tipping.
  
  You sure you don't use some other word? You guys have one of the best accents out there but can be tough to understand.

185 comments