1w ago

both pretty extreme

The Democratic National Convention™ of Libjerk @lemmy.dbzer0.com

Unruffled [they/them] @lemmy.dbzer0.com

1w ago

both pretty extreme

Political Memes @lemmy.world

FenrirIII @lemmy.world

1w ago

both pretty extreme

304 comments

Centrism doesn't mean that you can't choose between democrats and republicans, it means that ideologically, you believe in a balance between capitalist ideas and socialist ideas. For example, you can believe in the Hayekian idea that the many interactions between individuals in the market is better at creating prosperity than a centralized government that distributes all goods and services. But you can also believe that the market can't do everything on its own due to market failures like monopoly power, externalities, assymmetric information. There exists a compromise between the two that is negotiated through politics. A core necessity for this to happen is that democracy is maintained. Democracy is not maintained when elections are bought by companies.
What is happening in the US now is that politics has been taken over by the private market. No economist would have agreed with this (unless they were paid to). It is against everything that we know. This is not a left vs right stance. It's a democracy vs autocracy stance. Autocracy can happen from both the right and left, and it doesn't matter who.
The one thing I dislike about the idea of centrism is the idea that you can't decide on everything because you remain agnostic about every issue. I think a much better idea to advocate for is pluralism: the idea that your opinion on specific issues is not dependent on your politcal stance. Every issue is unique and doesn't automatically identify you with left or right. You can have different opinions on different issues.
- It’s funny because from my European perspective there’s no (visible) left in the USA. Democrats are centrist. Sanders could be social democrat. Otherwise I fully agree with you.
  
  The US political spectrum has shifted so far. What is right in the US is far right in the EU, and what is left in the EU is far left in the US.
  
  I think this has only happened because of manipulation of the masses.
- Lately I've caught myself thinking differently. The left is progressive because they want to progress civil rights. The centerists are conservative because they just don't want things to change. The right is regressive because they want to turn back the clock. Honestly I think we need to stop calling people on the right conservative and give them the new label regressives.
  
  Conservatives want to go back to the days when mediocre white men were greatly rewarded just for being white.
  
  As a mediocre white guy, I can confidently say that is today. Any white guy who is like "I never got any special treatment for being white" has gone though life and society with their eyes closed.
  
  There's still systematic racism with America. That being said, everyone's quality of life other than the uber rich has gone down noticeably. That's part of the reason populist lies from Trump work so well.
  
  You have to see conservativism and “the conservatives” as separate things. One is a group that can hold many different views and another is a view point itself.
- Ugh, market socialism exists.
  Not all socialism has planned economies. That's communism. A specific subset of socialism.
  Capitalism doesn't have a monopoly on market economies. badumtssh
  
  Right, but I see market socialism as an ideological compromise rather than inherent socialism. Im from scandinavia, and my country is a capitalist country with a strong welfare state.
  
  You have “welfare capitalism” as they define it so that they get to still try to keep people tethered to capitalism. Capitalism is not just having money, it’s a system that prioritizes said money. Capitalism seeks to reduce regulation and separate the worker and owner class and basically by definition you don’t get to have a say if you don’t have money. Scandinavian countries are not finding a balance but are resisting capitalism while keeping its name and to make people not be afraid of not having it(for some fuckin’ reason people really want it I don’t get it).
  If you have strong regulations, a government focused on taking care of people instead of relying on businesses to do it, and the people have fair power then you don’t have capitalism, just a system where private ownership exists but is not jerked-off at every turn like in the states. It was literally made up so the merchant class could keep all their money as monarchies were falling. It’s a not something you want to even associate with. Even the states hasn’t gone full capitalism because they know(knew) that it’s not a truly viable system.
  I also want system with some level of private ownership, but I also don’t think private, for-profit power generation should be a thing and if a company under “capitalism” is too big to fail then at least a large part of it should be sold to the government, and at least have it’s executive board purged, not handed a bunch of money as they hold their employees’ jobs hostage.
  
  Capitalism goes through different waves and has grown to accept government involvement insofar as to reduce market failures of which monopolies and externalities are some important ones. Unions are justified in capitalism by solving the market failure of asymmetric information.
  
  Socialism is when the government does stuff. And it's more socialism the more stuff it does. And if it does a real lot of stuff it's communism.
- If americans could read, they would be very upset.
- You can advocate for wealth taxes, unions, and other welfare measures within a capitalist system. I’m from one of the most egalitarian countries in the world and we are capitalist too.
  
  Nope, but I’m from scandinavia, no oil money.
  Edit: also, I dont like categorical descriptions, because reality is more complicated. But what is happening in the US is more specifically referred to as “rentier capitalism”. In Scandinavia, we have something like “welfare capitalism”.
  
  I’m not saying we don’t have things to work on, but it’s not black or white. Social injustice gets reduced over time in a democracy. Name a country that is not capitalist that has never done bad things.
- agnostic are agnostic because there is no foolproof evidence basis.
  with politics you can clearly see how some stances have been done and their effects. and other instances you also have a basis even in the most unclear case
  just had an issue with the negative connotation implied here talking about agnosistics :D
  
  I think we can all agree that adding religious parallels to anything is a waste of everyones time.
  
  this
  
  Yeah since people cannot be expected to have full knowledge of the evidence, you have to recognize you can be agnostic about some issues. It’s virtuous to seek evidence and knowledge, and you should make choices based on the best information you have.
  I’m not advocating for independents btw. I think you should clearly pick a party to vote for, but the two party system is a horrible system for people who are pluralistic in their views.
- I consider myself Centrist because I would rather eat 10 pounds of fried bugs than align myself with either absolute clown show of a party.
  I'm a free agent, and the haters can't stand that they can't have me.
  
  That doesn’t make you a centrist. Ya’ll seriously have lost your ability to see anything objectively it’s wild. The Democrats aren’t left wing except for a few people I could probably count on one hand but nearly the entire country, and its inability to pay attention even across its northern border, believes that the Democrats must be left wing since the Republicans are right wing.
  You may very well not be a centrist, or maybe you are, but basing that on anything that suggests that the Democrats are left, and left to a point where they balance the extremism of the GOP, renders he whole thing worthless.
  We’ve been screaming at the US for years to get a fuckin’ clue PLEASE just become moderately politically literate we are begging you.
  
  I spent 4 years going into debt for a degree in political literacy. And then more for a related Master's. I appreciate the frustration, but I can assure you I know exactly what I'm taking about.
  Relative to the 1D spectrum of D to R in the US, I'm certainly in the middle ground, beyond the border of what falls enough into the D realm. From a global perspective, sure, the Dems are already a mess that overlaps the center some, but thats a fuzzy edge and not as fully held by the Dems as most moderately informed Europeans like to imply.
  And yes, the lack of appropriate labels makes me more of a "Centrist" than anything else, but its barely an accurate term, as is using a 1D left/right binary to define anything can be. I'm against many types of government spending, which only a decade or two ago used to be such a quaint way to identify oneself politically, then everyone dropped the mask and it's just a full-on Kleptocracy out there now. On a Nolan Chart, I'm squarely in the Centrist square. On a quadrant evaluation, I fall into the same zone as Thomas Jefferson and...Marianne Williamson, oddly enough.
  Plus, Lemmy needs to hear opinions from outside the tankie echo chamber.
  
  I’d love to hear about that “many types of government spending” because that’s kinda important here.
  Any dipshit can barely pass classes and get a degree. I’ve worked with engineers who can’t even fucking count pillars in a picture and argue when you politely ask for a recount so you’re gunna need to do a lot more than leave incredibly important context up in the air while flapping around your basically worthless-until-proven-otherwise degree.
  Trump went to a good school. He’s bad at everything he supposedly learned there. Many republicans have law degrees and some days you wonder if they’re even able to read a children’s book with any level of competency.
  
  Yes, well I also hate typing out my political beliefs on mobile, but you raise a fair point. Even though in sure you'll hate everything I say out of principle. Apologies in advance for typos.
  In general, the GAO does a good job of enumerating wasteful spending. For example, there's 133 individual programs over 15 Federal agencies intending to expand broadband coverage. FFS, consolidate that. So there's statutory reforms and some streamlining to be done strategically across government. Not to balance spoons on a fork better than one can look at a spreadsheet, like some people.
  My family has spent their carers in education, and for me there's no love lost with the Dept of Education being eliminated. Even if you reduce it to a small grantmaking entity that funds state level systems, that's a function that can be easily done from within DOI.
  There's a large number of farm and oil subsidies that are so old as to be the goal of the industry to exploit. But oh no, don't touch farmers because you might undermine Monsanto's bottom line. These poor people are human shields.
  Earmarks, while a pittance on paper at only $15B in 2024, are a cultural artifact of the endemic problem in budget making. While not all spending is Earmarked, there's plenty beyond that scope which is a personal or lobbyist-initiated favor. Innumerable examples exist for this, and neither side is willing to get rid of theirs in order to get rid of the other side's favorites. Everyone is the problem here. Sure, at some level this is a balancimg act with the cost of politics and playing to constituents. But the fact that most Reps see it as their right is the problem.
  Military spending is crazy bananas and no one will touch it. Regardless of what idiots Musk and Hegseth say. The whole infrastructure is based on the Cold War+Post9/11 add on.
  My career is in international development, and as an industry, it very often achieved remarkably little other than things like gainfully employing 10% of the PhDs in a small country in Sub-Saharan Africa to do office work. Some programs were awesome and saved lives and made a difference. They were the rare exceptions to the rule. However, simply strangling USAID like has happened is the stupidest, most expensive way to accomplish chaos with nothing to show for it. Many programs that engaged in short-term behavior change frequently showed how ineffectual they were in their own final reports, yet the same companies still thought they did a great job because they had simply not failed to complete the contract.
  And don't get me started on how many contractors there are that charge 50% above market rate just because they can. Doesn't matter the industry, it's literal collusion across every contractor. I've written the budgets, and learned how to be only a "tiny" part of the problem. The reliance on contractors is a strategic disadvantage. Because money can solve that problem, it goes away temporarily over and over. That was a low-information environment in the past, ordering copier toner from a paper catalog. We need a new round of procurement reforms.
  I can go on and on. In large part, there's no one simple solution here. It's a lot of statutory reforms, hard work, strategic planning, and doing less with less that had to be adopted over years, as was done in the 90s. But at a much higher rate, and with more urgency. The US is in a genuine debt crisis, and the people who ran on crashing the system won in part because the Dems ran on ignoring this among other problems.
  
  To be honest, I agree with most of that. I’d love to hear more about the department of education but I also don’t wanna waste too much of your time and am aware that in the States it’s not entirely what it may seem to be. Personally I think it should be expanded to be more of what people believe it to be; leaving education so fully up to states doesn’t seem to do much besides make it easier for republicans to turn their base into even bigger drooling morons.
  But anyway thanks for clarifying, and in such depth, too. I’m glad to hear that “streamlining” doesn’t seem to mean the classic right-wing nonsense around making government small enough that it can be easily controlled by awful people. I’m also not sure how centrist these points are, especially if you’re aiming to, for example, not rely on private contractors. Left-wing policies aren’t “spend blindly”, that’s just a right-wing attack angle so they can defund things, so if you have ways for the government to be able to do things well then I mean of course I’m all for it.
  
  The simple version is that there is no Constitutional mandate for the Federal government to do anything related to education, which is why education is a function of the states. Yet it's also 4% of the Federal budget, so depending on how much of a strict constitutionalist you are, the root question is more about what does it really need to be doing, and why. I would argue that this far after the end of Jim Crowe, and the proliferation of for-profit universities, ED isn't maintaining standards, and is moving too slow to not simply feed Univ of Phoenix publicly-backed loan and GI Bill funds at a net loss to both taxpayers and students.
  At the state level, from what I hear second hand, ED does little more than manage overly complicated and tonedeaf grant mechanisms that flow down to state Education Departments, and then becomes this sort of Leviathan of distant micromanagement. Often with feckless management, confusing and unclear terms, and making the District/State/ED relationship unnecessarily odd and overly burdensome.
  Carter carved a new Department out of the Proto-HHS, and it's been a target of elimination since it was created. Its necessary functions can either get folded into DOI, or maybe back into HHS, or maybe even just a smaller independent agency, though that alone raises the specter of duplicitive administrative costs.
  
  Reducing an individual to a single point on these charts is kinda a fool's errand.
  Far better to give yourself a series of points on stances you agree with and carve out a spread of your beliefs with an averaged point that represents you.
  To say you are a centrist because your beliefs are purely in line with what society considers anodyne and 'normal' is far removed from a person that agrees with extreme positions on all sides of the compass.
  
  Why do you think voting for a party aligns yourself with that party?
  If two people want to attempt to unalive your mother with a 50% probability that they will succeed, and you have the chance to stop only one of them, reducing the chance to 25%. Does it mean that you align with whoever you do not choose?
  
  Voting WITH a party is not the same thing as voting for a candidate that has openly identified as a member one party or the other because that is a barrier to entry or funding avenue for them.
  I know it's hard to accept, but the entire history of both parties hasn't been "socialist utopia vs. Nazis." For a century the Democrats didn't eject all the Southern racists that declared they were Dems simply to be a counterpoint to Lincoln-to-MLK-era Republicans.
  Even a cursory understanding of history should make anyone distrust all political parties forever.
  But please tell me more about how the party that denied us a president Bernie Sanders (I) is worth my time.
  
  Why not vote for Bernie then? Better than nothing. At least it may give a lot of people or the democrats faith that he could potentially win in the future.
  I’m not saying that you need to give them your time, I’m just saying that voting for them doesn’t mean that you stand for what they believe. You can vote them and at the same time advocate for a different voting system.
  
  Closed primaries. I never got a chance to vote for Bernie.
  
  But please tell me more about how the party that denied us a president Bernie Sanders (I) is worth my time.
  Like Bernie has said, it is the only realistic vehicle to carry someone like him into the White House. The way the US political system is structured your movement needs to take over an existing party instead of trying to establish its own new party from the ground up if it wants any hope of success.
  
  Yes, that's what "barrier to entry" meant in my comment. Happepend to Bernie, happened to a family member of mine at the county level.
  Parties prevent YOU from being ABLE to vote for qualified candidates. That's all they are for, to give unqualified rich or charismatic people a chance to sell the party to you. Nothing else.
  
  This only makes sense if you insist on reducing complex multidimensional concepts to a single scalar value. Even intuitively it doesn't make sense. You place yourself in the centre between two philosophies you disagree with? What?
  
  It actually makes more sense when you don't reduce it. Look up a Nolan Chart, or quadrant-based political stance diagram. I fall squarely into the center of the Nolan Chart.
  
  You think that reducing to two dimensions is significantly different than reducing to one. I disagree.
  
  Lol, a lot of political scientists disagree with you, too. I bet they're all stupid, right?

304 comments