Jill Stein: How and Why I Will Stop Kamala Harris Winning the White House
Exclusive: Muslim and Arab Americans are flocking to the Green Party because of Democrat support for Israel's wars, Stein says.
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UniversalMonk Lemmy Stats:
Account Age - 2 Months
Comments - 3,000+
Posts - 1,300+
Average Comments Per Day - 50
Average Comments Per Hour - 3.125
Average Posts Per Day - 21.66
Average Posts Per Hour - 1.35
(Numbers are assuming that UniversalMonk is a single human who sleeps 8 hours per day)
Either this is a dedicated basement dweller who has no life other than shitposting tankie propaganda like it is their fucking job.
(Or, and I think this is more likely)
This is a coordinated, and malignant effort by a group of bad faith actors to coopt the political discourse on Lemmy in an attempt to drown out real discussion, and turn this place into the tankie equivalent of 8chan for pro-Putin LARPers.
It is clear they should be banned already.
I think it does bring up some larger issues though. Like should limits be placed on accounts. Do we really want users like this? Are they adding to the experience?
Banned for what? Because I have different views than you do?! Do you realise that the vast majority of articles I post aren't even to this community?! The person you responded to neglected to tell you that.
Here is my post history: https://lemmy.world/u/UniversalMonk?page=1&sort=New&view=Posts
This community isn't a "Only pro-Harris posters allowed" community. It celebrates diversity of opinion and thought. It's not an echo chamber.
If you think the article that was posted for this thread doesn't align with the community guidelines, feel free to contact the moderators. Thank you!
This was a discussion about you behavior. You did not address this behavior in your post.
The links are okay, but your responses are ridiculous just like the one here. The passive aggressiveness is palpable.
The constant need to disproportionally defend yourself definitely is trollish.
If you wish to address this fine. Otherwise there is not much else to say. I wish you good luck in the future and do hope you will change.
Also, let's here's a fun example. I just posted this: https://lemmy.world/post/20405177
It's actually an anti-Stein/Pro-democrat article. Look at the downvotes of the article. And go read the comments. lol
It got downvoted because I posted it. People downvote me because they think I am a russian troll who wants Trump to win. But I have posted several pro-democrat articles. So how does that fit in with your narrative of me and my behavior? Serious question; not "trolling."
Because my point is that I think people are actually mad because they are emotional that I'm not voting for Harris. And to explain it, they are quick to say that I have an "agenda" or that "I'm trollish."
But if I post articles that are pro-democrat/pro-Harris/anti-Trump/anti-Stein, and people are still mad, then how does that fit the idea that I am the one with some agenda?
So you’re saying I should just sit back and say nothing when people spread falsehoods about my motivations? What about when I’m accused of being Russian or not even living in the US—just let that slide too? What about that I am "multiple people" on this account because "no human could do that!" (which is hilarious by the way)
You’re literally advocating for me to be banned, and I shouldn’t respond to that? Really?
How about this: If people don't want a response from me, or think that my responses are "trollish", then maybe they should stop making accusations about me and just discuss the article.
A guy in this very thread, posts how many articles I post. And he does it every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. And he comes right out and says I shitpost. Now he is free to do that. My post history is public. But isn't doing that sort of trying to get some response?
Him posting that and baiting me doesn't get a rise out of me at all. But it's obvious he's targeting me and has been for some time. Feel free to check his post history and what he says to me. Again, he's free to do that as much as he wants. But don't I have a right to reply?
I had someone the other day, mention that they were responding to me ad nauseum to just increase the comment count for the post.
Is that in good faith?
If people just stopped responding to me, wouldn't that pretty much eliminate all the drama?
Now, people TOTALLY have a right to respond to me and try to "call me out." As often as they want, because it won't stop me from posting. But if they have that right, don't I have to right to respond?
Example:
My advice would be to only discuss the points of the article and stop trying to defend yourself in such a ridiculous manner. You don't need to at all honestly and at this point it only further solidifies people's perception of you.
You can only control yourself and pointing your finger at everyone else is never a good look.
Surely you can see what you have been doing is not working. Try something else.
Thanks for the advice. But I'll defend myself and my views when I feel it necessary. Sometimes I ignore, sometimes I don't. Depends on my mood. And though it was good for some discussion points to have with you, at the end of the day, I don't really give a shit what angry Lemmy commenters say. lol
I gave you examples, but then you decide to not address those at all. So yeah, I'm not really gonna take your advice on this.
And for the record, I DID ignore all comments and only asked people to respond to the article and not make things personal, and everyone said I was a troll and/or a bot. In fact, I used to put it as a disclaimer when I posted. Caused WAY more uproar and drama than me responding. lolol That's in my post history as well. So...
I'll keep posting what I want, when I want, where I want, and respond to people how I want. Whether it is "working" or not. Thank you!
"I'll keep posting what I want, when I want, where I want, and respond to people how I want. Whether it is "working" or not. Thank you!"
You keep confirming you are a troll, time and time again.
That's not me being a troll. That's showing you that no matter how many people here try to bully or pressure me, I have to right to post. That's me being totally free to post what I want. Just like you are.
Also, it's against this community's civility rules to call someone a troll. Thank you!
Just to be clear you are an unbelievably toxic troll. Everyone was right about you. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.
This is not a government run website, you have no rights. You are incapable of self reflection which is bizarre considering your username.
I will call you out for being a troll because it is the unfortunate truth. Peace be with you.
That's not very nice. You have called me names several times. And I haven't called you any names. You don't think you can make your argument without resorting to namecalling? Really?!
And actually I DO have rights on this website. I can post what I want, when I want, where I want. As you can do the same. If you are unhappy with the fact that I am not banned from Lemmy, then please take that up with the admin and let them know your thoughts.
Ban because you disagree with them? And you people say that Republicans are authoritarian.
Try harder please. I have read several articles posted by OP. They clearly have an agenda and have engaged in a lot of trolling behavior.
So the question is having an active troll/propagandist really good for the community. Maybe you could argue that they generate engagement or that we need to protect people's right to disagree.
The community should carefully weigh this moving forward. If accounts that act like bots are allowed then this place will follow in the footsteps of Digg or Reddit.
Personally, I would have already set them straight as a moderator. I have never been impressed by edgy people who add very little to the conversation.
The mods and admins have actually discussed their account multiple times.
The consensus is, yes, they have shitty opinions, but having shitty opinions is not against the TOS.
The links they post are legitimate links from respected sources.
So, no, nothing bannable or removable here. The comments and downvotes do their job exposing just how shitty their opinions are.
The problem we have is not with bad opinions.
If I were to copy paste the same response across many threads, intentionally antagonizing users and making that obvious, what is the secret to having that not be considered trolling? Because apparently op somehow discovered how to achieve that. This user is making it beyond obvious. They intend to troll users, and they're putting a lot of effort into it. Can you help us understand what makes that okay?
I don’t think anyone has a problem with shitty opinions. I think the bigger problem is a pattern of behavior that impairs the community.
Overall you have a user that disrupts the community in a variety of ways and contributes nothing of value - especially in their comments. I think at least a temporary ban has been justified for quite some time.
Thank you for calling this out in detail. I think that copy pasting responses several times easily qualifies as trolling and the massive amount of them doing this makes it no question. This alone should be enough.
They should be banned from the instance. I can't quite follow how it's controversial unless some of the mods are letting their politics stand in the way of observations anyone can easily make in a couple of minutes. There is nothing redeeming about this account. They are spreading bad ideas in bad faith, and frankly it shakes my faith in the platform that they can get away with it Scot fucking free. It's disgusting.
I don't have to explain anything to you or anyone else. Feel free to stop responding and commenting on my posts if you don't want to hear replies from me. Thanks! :)
Wasn’t talking to you, bud.
Feel free to stop responding and commenting on my posts and comments if you don't want to hear replies from me. Thanks!
But I was talking to you, friend. Thanks!
Right, because you’re a hypocrite. “Don’t reply to me if you don’t want to interact” but then repeatedly dives into deep conversation threads that didn’t include you to add your useless cut-and-paste copypasta du jour. You’re obviously looking at the post history of some individuals, following them around and injecting yourself where you are not wanted. You know who does that? Trolls.
Well, don't reply to me if you don't want to interact. And what makes you think I am looking at your post history? I posted this article and I was reading the discussion thread. What are you even going on about?! lol
If you don't want a response from me, then you don't have to talk about me or to me. Your choice, friend. Thanks! :)
Makes perfect sense about the links. Now their conduct of being defensive/borderline trolling in all the responses is not okay.
Thanks for bringing me up to speed.
Why would defending my views or opinions not be ok? Other people defend their opinions, why shouldn't I be able to? Plus if you are that annoyed with me, you can block me and not see anything I post or comment.
So what about the trolling behavior in comments?
People do not complain about his posts, let me repeat that, his posts are not the problem. Nobody cares about his opinions. Nobody minds that he likes third parties, that part is fine.
It's the behavior in comment sections that is the problem. How is it that we have a rule 4 that prohibits trolling, but we allow a user who consistently exhibits comment behavior intended to simply irritate whoever is interacting with them? Low effort, consistently full of logical fallacies, frequently misrepresenting himself and others, etc. These indicate a troll.
Again, it is comment behavior that is the problem. How many of his comments need to be removed before it is identified as a problematic account? I think we deserve some transparency here.
Where and how do you draw the line with regards to trolling behaviors in comments sections?
edit: Let me quote him from just below here, where he replied to someone replying to you right here:
I don’t have to explain anything to you or anyone else. Feel free to stop responding and commenting on my posts if you don’t want to hear replies from me. Thanks! :)
Does this add anything to a conversation? Does this further discourse in any constructive way? Does this encourage people to positively participate in our community?
I appreciate your effort here. It seems like the answer is that this user gets special treatment. Maybe it's a mod or admin's alt and no one is brave enough to stand against it.
I think they're just erring on the side of free speech in general. They've always been fairly lenient with comment behavior that isn't extremely blatant. Since they don't seem to understand the nature of these things, we sort of have a responsibility to educate about it.
I know I have pointed out trolling/suspicious behavior by this account a few times. The mods I've talked to never seem to care and just tell me to block them, as if that actually solves the problem.
That's part of the problem too. They don't understand what a dedicated troll's real long-term goals are. Good on them for never having been one, but I'd rather have a rare example of a healthy large internet community than a trolly one.
Thank you! (I mean, kind of...lol)
I think actively trolling people by arguing in bad faith or through astroturfing like this is definitely poisoning the community. It shouldn't be tolerated for tolerances' sake. And I'm not saying to just ban people you don't agree with. I'm saying people who obviously just post to poke the bear, so to speak, should face discipline for trying to turn Lemmy toxic.
These are pretty much my thoughts as well.
If these articles are from legitimate news organizations, calling it "poking the bear" doesn’t really make sense. I’m not even posting the articles directly—just links to them. And let’s be real, the actual news sites get way more attention than we ever will here. So if you’ve got a problem with the content, take it up with them.
Besides, are people who post a ton of pro-Harris content "astroturfing"? Or do you think what I post is “poison” simply because they don’t match your opinions?
How is posting articles from news orgs "trying to turn Lemmy toxic"? So is posting pro-Harris articles "toxic"? Also you do realize I post pro-Harris articles too, right?
1: You are "poking the bear" because everything you post to this community is pursuant to getting Harris to lose the election, either through pro-PSL or Green articles (via the Spoiler Effect), or through explicitly anti-Harris articles. That's the pattern behind your posts, it obviously doesn't matter how reputable a source is to you so long as you can flood Lemmy with this content. "Take it up with them" is a copout for your behavior because you choose to post their articles here.
2: You clearly don't know what astroturfing even means. What could pro-Harris posts even astroturf for?
3: Repeatedly posting articles about getting Harris to lose the election and arguing in bad faith in defense of why that's actually good for advancing socialism in the US is toxic because it's literally incorrect. And when pointed out, you say you don't actually think a second Trump term would be all that bad for you. It's patently obvious what you're trying to do on here, you're trying to get leftists on board with neo-fascism and accelerationism to enrich yourself.
So what about the Anti-Trump and Anti-Stein articles that I post too. What bear am I poking when I have posted those?
And how exactly am I trying to "enrich" myself?! What?! lolol
Liberals don't like leftists in general because we make them feel like bad people. That's why they try so hard to morally lash out at us whenever they can. They understand that many of the policies they advocate are unethical, but can't oppose a system they benefit from, so they tear us down and lash out at us.
You have some interesting beliefs for sure.
Liberals who are most often defined by equality typically align with the so-called left. Although it is important to point out what country you are from can drastically alter this perception. I was born and raised in North America.
The right which is often synonymous with conservatives have pushed back against racial and gender equality. They believe in rigid hierarchies keeping control through rules that bind others but not themselves.
I get the feeling you probably believe in a lot of right wing propaganda. Hence the whole inflicting moral outrage on others being such a boogey man. It really isn't as conservatives have no problem ignoring it.
often defined by equality typically align with the so-called left.
They talk as if they are aligned, but vote as if they are not. They put BLM in their social media profiles, then voted for the people that created the necessity for orgs like BLM to exist. They cried about kids in cages, then voted for the architect behind them.
While the liberal is part of the oppressor, he is the most powerless segment within that group. Therefore when he seeks to talk about change, he always confronts the oppressed rather than the oppressor. He does not seek to influence the oppressor, he seeks to influence the oppressed. He says to the oppressed, time and time again, “You don't need guns, you are moving too fast, you are too radical, you are too extreme." He never says to the oppressor, "You are too extreme in your treatment of the oppressed," because he is powerless among the oppressors, even if he is part of that group; but he has influence, or, at least, he is more powerful than the oppressed, and he enjoys this power by always cautioning, condemning, or certainly trying to direct and lead the movements of the oppressed.
Kwame Ture
So you think that leftists only pay a lip service to equality? That is a valid criticism given by leftists themselves.
It is important to keep in mind it was the progressives, which includes liberals and leftists, who are the ones responsible for desegregation and just about every other social justice issue in our modern times.
They did not do it by force either. They convinced people and used their social currency to cause voluntary change in the hearts and minds of people as well as policies in the government.
In the US, trying to lay the blame on them for family separation and caging children is pretty far fetched. Did they play some small part in it? Probably.
It was not their policy and to be frank they would have never had to take a centrist position if the conservatives did not try to make it into a political issue in the first place. Conservatives have used their grievance culture of hate to turn people against each other for far too long.
So Kwane Ture's biggest criticism is the liberals don't try hard enough? That because they don't tear the institution down they are just as bad as the oppressors. That because they see it is wrong and try to make a change that they are actually taking power away from the oppressed.
This is all a common criticism in the vein of Malcom X and many before and after him. It of course ignores that the progressives are actually made up from the oppressed. That everything we consider part of what makes life livable nowadays is because of progressives.
We would already have cheap or universal healthcare, equality of the sexes, elimination of discrimination, reformation of policing, living wages, free education, and a slew of other amenities if the conservatives did not decide to turn all these issues partisan.
The fact that the Democratic party marched to the right is the response of 60+ years of hateful propaganda spewed from the conservatives to divide our populace. They are the ones responsible for dragging the country right.
Having said all that I do agree with his sentiment. The progressives have grown complacent. We still don't have a equal rights amendment added to our constitution. We won't protect the rights of 50% of our society. As a man with four daughters it is very disheartening.
liberals and leftists, who are the ones responsible for desegregation and just about every other social justice issue in our modern times.
Letter from a Birmingham jail has entered the chat,
I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
One of the men at the head of the civil rights movement tends to disagree with you. If liberals were among those that were fighting for desegregation in every other social justice issue of our modern times, this scathing review of white moderate liberals would not have been necessary. And if that were true, After the Civil Rights laws were passed, he would have still had an overwhelming approval rating, his approval rating amongst liberals was less than 25%.
As I already alluded to this is a common criticism still being made by liberals about their own movement today. Not sure who you are trying to convince as I think it is mostly true.
Martin Luther King won out over his more radical race war baiting counterparts. Was peace and goodwill the best way to move civil rights forward? I think it probably was but it will never make everyone happy, particularly those who had nothing to gain and had already lost everything.
Also please show me the movement that is doing what the liberals could not. Things are better than they have ever been before. But that does not mean they can't get worse or shouldn't be better than they are.
Where do you come up with this stuff? You really put a lot of assumed beliefs/motivations on large groups of people. It’s like you’re deep in echo-chamber talking points designed to divide subgroups, but have never actually talked to “Democrats” or “liberals”.
Hint: outside of fringe communities discussing socialist philosophy, in the US “left”, “liberal”, and “Democrat” are nearly synonymous to most of the public.
Just because the general public believes something doesn't make it correct. US democrats believe they are on the left side of the political spectrum, but by every measurable aspect they are firmly right wing, and moving further to the right
https://lemmy.world/post/20349566
Anti-Stein/Pro-Democrat article I posted. Check the downvotes and the comments.
https://lemmy.world/post/20281854?scrollToComments=true
Anti-Trump article. Check out the comments. So you don't think I had the right to reply?
https://lemmy.world/post/20405177
Yet another anti-Stein article I've posted. Heavily downvoted.
So what is my agenda again? Please explain.
But I’ve posted articles that are critical of Trump, Stein, and Harris, as well as articles praising each of them. How come you don't mention those articles?
So, if you’re assuming I agree with every viewpoint in the articles I post, how does that even work when I share so many conflicting perspectives?!
I also created and mod a political news community where people have posted articles praising Harris, criticizing Stein, and trashing me—yet I still leave those up.
https://lemmy.world/c/politicsunfiltered
I could have removed them. Seems like a lot of conflicting viewpoints for you to imply I have some agenda.
Right?! And the vast majority of articles I post aren't even to this community. And I've posted pro-Harris, anti-Stein, and anti-Trump articles too. Funny how the poster who posted my stats neglected to mention that. lol
I think basement dweller is much more likely. Let's not forget, trolling is fun at a certain age. It's a recreational activity, engaged in as a way to enjoyably pass the time. This is why the advice always used to be to not interact, and just starve them of any engagement so it stopped being enjoyable. To not feed them.
That stopped working when real effects also became achievable, but we shouldn't forget that the first motivation is still there. Just because ignoring them won't make them go away now, because they're trying to actually work on a nebulous goal, doesn't mean it ever stopped being fun.
I mean, is it so hard to believe, when we used to get regularly DDoSed and even occasionally hacked, that we'd also pick up some dedicated trolls from time to time? It'd frankly be pretty naive to think we'd be so lucky, if someone has ever spent any time in the seedier corners of the internet where these things come from.
It's that fun aspect we have to remember. I mean, I disagree with ozma, Linker, jimmydore, lots of people very regularly, but they're not stringing out dozen+ long comment chains just trying to irritate the person they're interacting with at whatever moment. They're not trolling, they just have strong opinions. It's specifically that having fun at other people's expense thing that makes this one different. And frankly, it's very common on the internet, just usually not so much in moderated spaces, when the mods are being appropriately responsible. The rest of the internet is still out there though, can always go spend some time on 4chan's /pol/ if you need to see the sorts of things we're dealing with. Maybe a LoL lobby, I hear those are lovely. Maybe the comments sections under some Gamergate youtuber's videos, or Ben Shapiro or someone.
Plenty of places you can find people that just want to have a good time at your expense. For fun, with just a side dose of fuck-the-world.
And then of course, there are those people who like to engage and accuse just so they can increase comment counts:
You keep that saved like its some damning thing, but it's really not. Trolling is actually harmful to a community. That's not.
Thanks for the shout-out! I feel so special that you think so highly of me!
OR I mean, it might just be that I’m an older, semi-retired guy with some extra time who genuinely enjoys keeping up with third-party news and socialist movements. Not very complicated.
But your theory makes it sound way more fun and exciting! Like I’m some kind of super agent involved in a multi-layered grand conspiracy to… to… what exactly? Oh yeah, post articles on a tiny Lemmy forum that get downvoted immediately!
Still, the way you describe it, I almost feel cooler just reading it!
I'm just about to post a few more articles, so if you could please update your stats when you post, that would be awesome! Thank you! :)
