You're viewing part of a thread.
How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I'm in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you're a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production
i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant evenDo you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.
What's wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What's wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?
Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.
I won't waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.You don't think there are any successful communes or co-ops?
List them. Show me how many of them work.
They're literally all around you. A credit union is a cooperative, the Associated Press (AP) is a cooperative, there are a number of electric companies that are cooperatives which I've been a part of. Land 'o Lakes for gods sake is a cooperative! Even Texas has housing and brewery cooperatives! I don't know why you're being so combative, If you took 10 seconds to look it up you would know. Either you've been grossly misinformed by someone or your perceived notions need educated.
List of cooperatives (not even close to being a complete list)
Land O'Lakes was founded on July 8, 1921, in Saint Paul, Minnesota, by representatives from 320 cooperative creameries as the Minnesota Cooperative Creameries Association.
This isn't a new, fanciful, or dreamy thing. It's a very real system that benefits everyone at the company including CEO's.
“Workers in employee-owned firms tend to be more cooperative and interested in the firm’s performance, and display a greater willingness to work hard, which generally leads to reduced employee turnover, improved productivity, better pay, and increased job security.”
While cooperatives are well-known in many European countries, Americans may not realize that this model of organizing also has deep roots here. Cooperatives undergirded the early stages of U.S. capitalism, with communities establishing electrical cooperatives, insurance mutuals, and dairy cooperatives as alternatives to government bureaucracies and conventional firms alike. America’s early unions founded hundreds of industrial cooperatives to protect workers’ rights and share the gains of industry more equitably.
If you want to have a real conversation about co-ops I'm here for it. If you're just going to respond with a snarky comment and nothing to back it up but anecdotal observations then I will not waste anymore time continuing further.
I was specifically asking for communes and you show me coops that still have capitalist gain in mind. Delusional
You're either woefully uneducated with a bitter attitude or just a troll. Either way, your complete refusal to even perform a 10-second google search to confirm or refute your claims shows you're not willing to accept any new information outside of your completely-incorrect viewpoint. Have a good and lonely life so others can be spared from your ignorance.
For everyone else, successful and long-lasting communes do exist. There are a wide variety of "Alternative Lifestyle" or "Intentional Communities" out there. It basically boils down to, "what are your motivations and prospects for joining such a community?". From wiki "The multitude of intentional communities includes collective households, cohousing communities, coliving, ecovillages, monasteries, survivalist retreats, kibbutzim, hutterites, ashrams, and housing cooperatives."
With a 30-second search I located this page with over 946 communities signed up (many across the U.S.) that you can register with if you're interested. These types of communities have a wide-range of goals or how they operate, such as Living Energy Farm's technology driven mandate "We are an intentional community farm and sustainable technology research, development and education center. We serve as a viable demonstration that a fulfilling life is possible without the use of fossil fuel. Our mission is to serve as an example and actively promote lifestyles and technologies that are truly sustainable, and to make these sustainable technologies accessible to all persons regardless of their income or social position." All the way to the other side of the spectrum which the above commenter probably perceives all communes to be (Awake-In Heart Healing Center), "The driving force of our vision is to bring back unity, generosity, and community, as well as helping the next generations thrive using natural principle of wisdom." I personally prefer somewhere in the middle like the European Eco-village template. Just search "eco village community" on youtube and pick a video that looks interesting to you to start your journey.
If articles are more your style, he's an excerpt talking with a commune that's been around for over 40 years.
Would-be members used to contact Bergholt Hall, one of Britain’s longest standing farming communes, at the rate of 70 or so a year: 50-something empty nesters looking for companionship; 30-something couples in pursuit of an idyllic upbringing for their children; 20-somethings keen to erect a yurt on the hall’s rolling Suffolk pasture. Since the Covid lockdowns, however, Hodgson admits, it’s been “bonkers”. “We had 70 applications in April and May alone.”
It’s a pattern echoed across the UK, with communes reporting being inundated by new applicants of all ages, driven by the Extinction Rebellion movement and its focus on low-carbon living and, more recently, by the glimpse that lockdown has offered of simpler, less consumption-driven, lifestyles.
There are more than 400 such “intentional” communities across the UK. Many are cohousing set-ups, in which residents live in individual dwellings with a few common areas and domestic functions; others are based upon a lifestyle or worldview (spiritualism, gender non- binarism, veganism) and feature a variety of communal labour arrangements and facilities.
A surprising number are longstanding country communes, such as Bergholt Hall, founded in the heyday of the 1960s and 70s back-to-the-land and self-sufficiency movements. It was an era when an ideological generation of “diggers” (named after the 17th-century English communards) sought to challenge notions of the sanctity of the nuclear family and opt out of “the grab-game of straight society” (as hippy bible Oz magazine put it in a 1968 article on the first London digger commune).
If anyone wants to talk about cooperatives then feel free to contact me or reply to this message. It's an interesting topic and I believe a sustainable way to exist on this planet if instituted large scale. Want to work off the land and help the direct community? There's a place for you. Busy working and just wish to contribute financially while living in the community? There's a place for you. Want to start up a company that your passionate about? Imagine having a community with a plethora of talents to help you and that you can equitably share income with! You can form a cooperative business within a commune and bring in workers from outside the community to share in your prosperity.
The possibilities are endless, the outcome is fair and sustainable. With enough cohesion you can combine with other businesses to form a mega-cooperative like the Land O'Lakes example above. The only thing stopping you is individual greed, which we've seen how that's played out so far in our history.
You linked to cults. Kinda cringe bro.
Profit isn't Capitalist, lmao. You were laughing this entire time yet you didn't even know that? Yes, Capitalism is driven by profit, but Capitalism itself is not profit. Capitalism is individual ownership of the Means of Production, rather than collective. Co-ops are Socialist.
Read some theory.
They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.
Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.
Again, what do you mean by "works?" There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you're asking, or Rojava.
Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?
I am not talking about anything evil or how democracy is bad.
I am talking about communists being delusional.
Yall keep talking and yall keep proving it over and over again.
You don't understand shit and just keep repeating stuff that didnt even work 70 years ago.You are. You are directly saying democracy is bad when applied to labor, by saying Socialism and Communism are delusional, as all Socialism is is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production vs Individual ownership a la Capitalism.
You have additionally showcased how you genuinely don't understand what anyone is talking about, and rather than attempt to engage with them, you just laugh and call everyone else delusional while you use an explicitly Socialist platform made by a Communist as a direct response to the failures of Capitalist Reddit.
Bringing you through the same example again: which is better, the factory owned and run by the Workers, or thr factory owned by a Capitalist and run by the Workers?
I understand that as both a landlord and a laborer, you're petite bourgeoisie. As such, you are reactionary and thus stand against the progress of the Mode of Production from one of Capitalism to one of Socialism. However, your arguments can be directly copied and pasted to times of Feudalism. "If Capitalism is so great, why aren't there Capitalists and businesses owned by them everywhere?" while in the midst of France pre-revolution would be just as valid as your arguments now. That is to say, they are entirely devoid of analysis and are a way for you to not have to actually think about your views.
Seriously answer me this, if nothing else: are worker co-operatives delusional?