Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths, less than originally claimed
Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths, less than originally claimed
A more precise picture of Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel has emerged from social security data, confirming the unprecedented scale of the violence but also challenging some initial testimonies.
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The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
So? Does it matter if it was 1400, 1300 or 1139? It's mass murder anyway, and Hamas are still bastards for killing them. And Netanyahu is still a bastard for using it as a free pass on bombing Gaza. These numbers don't change anything at all.
Can one imagine a rave party with a thousand+ of people, and then imagine them all dead? Or a european-like district with housing, schools, shops for 13k people - you can see them on Google Maps, they were pretty sweet in spite of israeli politics - all leveled down to the ground. It's a rave party not unlike one happening near you, this neighborhood is not unlike yours. These people may not speak english, yet they share basic things with you, like, they could've liked the same songs, the same movies like you do, some of them could've even been trekkies. And now they are lost. They won't have a child, they won't share a funny story over drinks with friends, they won't build that birdhouse their elderly parents asked for. They are dead, non-existent, and all work put into making them proper adults is lost. And whatever it's a thousand, or a thousand of thosands, it's too much to ignore. Every person shot or slayed there is too much to ignore. There should be a ceasefire agreement first, it needs to stop.
I know right, imagine if it had been over 15,000 innocent people that had had their homes destroyed and their family and friends killed over something they had nothing to do with.
and then imagine them all dead?
Did that happen?
Also while atrocities were committed on October 7th, AFAIK there was no mass murder. And if you're wondering how so many people died then, there's an unknown but significant number of IDF-inflicted casualties in those 1139.
I'm not sure what's the definition of mass murder but advancing in a city/place and start killing indiscriminately sounds a lot like it.
Yes but I'm saying that didn't happen to my knowledge. From what we know so far about the attack, the IDF response was far from careful not to harm civilians, and in some cases chose to actively kill hostages to get the Hamas soldiers who captured them.
Israel so far hasn't done anything close to releasing the number of people who died to IDF fire, or just in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF, and until they do that they have no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.
~ 1/3 military kills is definitely not "indiscriminately killing". These numbers change everything.
It's not a mass murder anymore. Oct7 was a justified targeted retaliation.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure, and shows a complete disregard for the value of innocent human lives.
Also, mass murder is generally defined as the killing of 3 or more persons at a time. Not exactly a high bar.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure
Is it? I mean civilians getting killed is bad no matter the number, and I'm not denying Hamas soldiers committed war crimes, but for example in Iraq the US coalition's percentage was 77%.
Because everyone is so happy that Iraq happened? Here, fixed:
77% civilian casualties is also a universally abhorrent figure
Yeah I'm not saying 67% civilians is a good number, only that it's a normal number.
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. Unfortunately yes, 67% it isn’t particularly out of the ordinary. Perhaps I’m in a bit of a bubble, but I think/hope the vast majority of people consider this historical “normal” to be “abhorrent” these days. Such would be a positive change for society.
Perhaps I should also clarify that by “universal”, I don’t mean “everyone agrees”, but rather “regardless of the circumstances”. I included this to suggest that I think the civilian casualty rate in Palestine is also abhorrent, and I don’t think the October 7 attacks justify it in the slightest.
Perhaps I’m in a bit of a bubble, but I think/hope the vast majority of people consider this historical “normal” to be “abhorrent” these days.
That's true. Normally I'd talk about not even close to all the civilian casualties are Hamas-inflicted, but mostly I wanted to point out that the popular Israeli narrative of "they entered our villages and indiscriminately killed our people in a brutal terrorist attack" is wrong even going by the 67% alone.
Justified retaliation, and an operation meant to get concessions out of Israel for Gazans. That's why they took the hostages.
there was no mass murder
Go fuck yourself with a fork if 1139, or even 500 isn't a mass murder in your dictionary, I don't feel like I want to talk to you. You don't help palestinians by downplaying what hamas bastards did to jews while enjoying golf courses in Quatar.
Fuck yourself first asshole they used this excuse to declare a genocide and it comes out Israeli leadership fucking funded Hamas and allowed this shit to happen.
Hamas sucks but everything they did has Israeli hands helping and now Israeli hands are committing genocide.
How fuckin stupid are you?
You'd go to excuse Hamas, won't you?
Hamas sucks but ...
Get. Lost. Already.
Yes i absolutely will excuse Hamas. They're a rabid angry abused dog taunted and then their owner secretly unlocked the fence and cried "what a bad dog look what it did to me!"
Israel is the start and end of this Hamas is a pawn. Fuck off idiot.
You are honest about that. I'd give you that. It feels refreshing to find an opponent who stays by their ideals. Thinking you are terminally wrong, I respect you still being there.
Excuse Hamas for what?
Launching an attack on a white supremacist settler-colonialist state that has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949?
I think it is you that needs to get lost.
Killing a thousand of people is ok, right?
You know you can hate both Hamas and Israeli monsters?
Killing a thousand of people is ok, right?
Not keeping up with current events, are you?
Or are you just so desperate to cling to your pro-Israeli narrative that you will simply ignore them?
Do you suggest I've hallucinated all these killings done by Hamas? They did indeed happened. There are still hostages kept by them in Gaza.
IDF isn't right using that as a reason to murder 10x more. Netanyahu should be roped on the closest tree branch if you'd ask me. But israelis doing these crimes don't excuse Hamas's attack. It is still a morbid act of terror that should be remembered and acted upon.
I literally responded to that in the very next sentence. Until the IDF counts the people their own fire killed, and the ones who died in the crossfire, both of which exist in significant numbers, we have no evidence Hamas did anything close to mass murder. Also that 1139 is counting the 373 security force people, which are legitimate military targets.
So ~800 civilians dead still, right?
You... just ignored everything I said except the numbers right?
No?
You mean these 800-something people died in a cross-fire? I feel like I don't uderstand you.
The crossfire, reckless (sometimes deliberate when they were taken hostage) IDF fire and Hamas war crimes. These three categories all contain significant numbers of people, so until we know who killed how many and where there are no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.