Country wide power outages reported Spain and Portugal
Country wide power outages reported Spain and Portugal
news.sky.com
Spain and Portugal blackouts latest: Power cuts not caused by cyber attack, Spanish grid says
24 comments
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I live very close to the border but on the French side, we had a tiny outage of about 1/3 of a second (but long enough to reset routers)... That's probably why.
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I'm in Lisbon and right before the power went out the lights flickered like crazy for a good second.
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Lisbon, Texas?
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That's all it takes some times if conditions are bad inside a grid.
This is one of the unfortunate downsides to moving form 'large spinny things' in coal generation to tiny integrated circuits generating the rotational momentum needed in an AC system. We had a similar issue in South Australia in 2016, complete black system after a number of events but of the two biggest preventable causes, one was simply the loss of rotational momentum in the system, in 1995 is used in be close to 10s, in 2016 it was less than .6s
We need to start rethinking the grid for the future, we can't keep coal/gas but we also can't keep a grid completely reliant on momentum for short term ride through.
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in 1995 is used in be close to 10s,
what
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10 seconds of rotational momentum stored in turbines, such that if there is a skew in the balance of electrical supply:demand it will 'sap' that rotational momentum before the frequency starts starts dropping. Once that energy is depleted frequency will drop, in SA 1hz (from 50hz) is enough to trigger UFLS ('Ultra fast load shedding' - not fast enough for .6s momentum though) which will start dropping parts of the grid to try and keep at least part of it alive (restarting from a black system takes a lot longer than sequentially just adding de-energised parts back)
'large spinny things' - These don't need to be big generators, they they can just be dyanmos (or better we start to move to a DC grid and just use capacitor banks.)
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Good point. In the Netherlands there are tests being done with ultra fast batteries to take over the grid forming properties of 'large spinny things'. See: https://www.rwe.com/en/press/rwe-generation/2024-09-09-rwe-builds-ultra-fast-innovative-battery-storage-system-in-the-netherlands/
But saying that this power outage is caused by it is speculation at this point.
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We've got some large scale batteries in SA (funnily enough one of our first was built by Elon, with his '$100mil for 100MW in 100 days' promise, which largely held- this was pre mask-off though) and it's now a lot better than in was in 2016.
We've also got more power generating here, so less variable dependence on interstate links (which go back to Brown Coal powered Victoria, yuck)
I'm not implying there is a problem with their grid though, just stating a small problem can cascade very quickly in an AC grid, it doesn't take a lot especially when a lot of us in the western world have been belt tightening for the last 10-15 years (less available backup capacity)
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but we also can’t keep a grid completely reliant on momentum for short term ride through.
If I understand it properly, the problem you're referring to is "grid following" vs "grid forming". The former being most solar/wind deployments and the latter being one of the big spinny things. Its not that the tiny integrated circuits can't do grid forming too, its that its risky for anything to do so and many operators when given the choice decouple (meaning their contribution to the grid stops) rather than let their expensive equipment be put in danger.
One solution to this is gridscale battery storage. As the cost of batteries fall (especially with cheap chemistries like Sodium Ion) we'll likely see many more gridscale battery deployments.
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Not the one you are replying to but I was thinking about what is now popular in Europe: instead of big solar farm, it's more € 4 000 system with a bit more than a 1.5 KW of balcony solar, and a small 3 or 4 kw battery inside the home associated with a smart meter that doesn't allow the current to flow back to the grid. It cannot allow for off-the-grid living but it does keep the grid safe and decentralizes energy generation. With the possibility of a call to share in case there is a catastrophic event.
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instead of big solar farm, it’s more € 4 000 system with a bit more than a 1.5 KW of balcony solar,
...and...
It cannot allow for off-the-grid living but it does keep the grid safe
and decentralizes energy generation.With the possibility of a call to share in case there is a catastrophic event.Those do the opposite actually. Those are some of the small scale versions of the problem that @ms_lane@lemmy.world was referring to.
Those are "grid following" devices. So where they can contribute to a cascade failure is if there is a slight sag in the grid voltage or frequency (supplied by the "big spinny things" of utility grade generators that poster was referring to), the solar system would turn itself off to protect itself. This would enable full passthrough of your households electrical demand to pull from the grid directly instead. Where the balcony solar would be offsetting a nice chunk of demand, suddenly that demand is pulled from the grid instead in a fraction of a second. Now imagine ALL the houses doing that at once. The sudden spike in demand from all those households can cause utility grade solar/wind operators to pull their supply as well, further spiking the need for more electricity at that moment. Then you get brownouts or blackouts because the only supply of electricity was the grid scale generator with the big spinny generators (which form the grid), and the demand is beyond the ability of the generator to supply. So breakers are thrown cutting off electricity customers to protect the electrical infrastructure.
Because balcony solar are "grid following", they cannot be called on to share in the case of a catastrophic event. They need a healthy grid in place before they can come online.
and decentralizes energy generation.
This point is true though during the good times. Any reduction in grid demand (which these balcony solar setups do) is a net positive. However, they don't help in catastrophic situations because they depend on the grid being up and healthy. I wish more of the world allowed them. We aren't allowed to do that in the USA, as an example. Putting up any amount of solar that connects to the grid at all, even solar that doesn't feed power back (called "zero export" here) require detailed engineering plans and permits before you can install them. This increases the cost and complexity for any residential solar installation.
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You're completely right. But I suppose @Renohren@lemmy.today was thinking of using the battery and solar panels for personal use in case the grid is down. Which in theory is possible but afaik it requires additional measures, just having the battery and solar panels installed doesn't mean your fridge will work without the grid.
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Oh, yeah: I think the smart Meter ( mandatory linky brand in France) can block outgoing if no incoming in it's options. So not the fridge (but that one has thermal inertia going for it) but maybe a few led lights, maybe a small computer?
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The thing is, I've been eyeing those solar+battery systems to save up a bit but I really don't want to be part of the problem with grid failures.
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No it's good for the energy transition of you get solar+battery, especially if you're in France. Sellers of these systems often promise you a return on investment based on historical data. Be aware though that due to the energy transition business cases can quickly develop unexpectedly. You're taking on risk.
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There's some technical pieces I'm missing about the European implementation. Do you have a link to the system you're looking at or the name? I'm happy to learn more.
I'm a bit proponent of solar. Get it in whatever form you can. Balcony solar is a great concept, so if thats what's available to you, I'd say go for it. As for grid stability, you're one person. You have no ability to affect operations at the grid level. The regulators in your region will have to account for people like you and your electricity needs and put in place solutions for future stability.
Any reduction in electricity from fossil fuels is a win. Get solar.
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There's the popular but expensive ecoflow stream,
At the other extremity this solarchoc one seems too cheap to be serious and uses zendure hardware. I'll have to look on review sites...
And many many others between those 2 extremities....
They are always associated with a Linky smart meter (only meter allowed in the Country, no matter who you are subscribed to, there is only 1 nationwide grid operator and planner ). That meter is designed with home batteries, home generation in it's design as well as utilities ability to selectively put heaters / car chargers into an eco mode if the need arises.
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Why would that require coal though? Wouldn't nuclear power provide the same rotational momentum with the turbines? Wouldn't hydro electric also provide rotational momentum?
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Flywheels can give the same momentum.
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They're all hinting at a cyberattack. Probably has nothing much to do with the grid.
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