Europe Preps Huge Defense Package in Boost to Ukraine: 'Never Been Seen'
Media reports said as much as $700 billion could be allocated to Europe's defenses, though it was not clear how much of that amount would go to Kyiv.
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@NightOwl@lemmy.ca LMAO With what weapons? Not going to happen.
You see, weapons do not grow on trees. Instead, you need to allocate resources, to either construct them yourself, or purchase them from other people who do. This is usually done with money.
Which won't happen overnight — Probably take a decade or more.
Decade? Probably not, unless you're trying to spin up domestic production from nothing.
Few years maybe. Depends who you buy them from and how developed their industry is. S Korea does a lot of artillery production. US has its fair share if you want jets. Everyone's got small arms, trucks, stuff like that.
The EU and America ARE starting from scratch. They shuttered most of their industrial capacity, thinking war in the future was only going to be high-tech.
Scratch? No, not even close. A reduction and an elimination are not the same thing.
O pull your head out of the sand. You must be young and don't remember the Rust Bowl in America. And all the Americans thrown out of work as they deindustrialized. No one has the capacity to beat Russia in producing armaments. It takes years to build that type of capacity.
... remember the Rust Bowl? lol You should do your homework a little better.
Now I will agree that it takes years, absolutely. Not decades though, which is what you said earlier. Also, fortunately, the process of scaling up armaments production was already started, about two years ago.
You don't know what you don't know. So you weren't around when America shut down all its industry and moved manufacturing to China? LOL I still stand by my position that it will take a least a decade to spin up manufacturing to be able to compete with Russian manufacturing of military product. Other than China or possibly India, Russia hasn't any competition in this regard. That's one of the reasons they've won the war, well, that and superior military tactics. Russia has never been conquered—Not even close.
You read too much bullshit. The US is the second-largest manufacturer on the planet, after China. We have quite a lot of industry still. Nor was "rust bowl" ever a term, which you'd know if you were an American.
If Russian production is so plentiful, where are all the T-90s? Seems to me a major producer of materiel wouldn't be needing to field its T-64's in a modern conflict.
Unfortunately, you're not well-informed. Probably a NAFO too. Are you a NAFO?
The 1990s marked a significant period of transition for American manufacturing, with the movement of production to China leading to substantial job losses and economic decline in the Rust Belt. However, recent trends suggest a potential resurgence in manufacturing, driven by global economic shifts and a focus on domestic production.
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt and https://recruitonomics.com/is-the-american-rust-belt-primed-for-a-resurgence/
Of course, that’s why they’ve been able to devastate Ukraine without facing much resistance. They’re certainly not being humiliated, are they?
But let’s be real, there’s a big difference between being able to build tractors with a cannon attached and actually producing proper tanks. Europe has one capability, and Russia has the other—I don’t need to spell out which is which, the convoy heading toward Kyiv at the start of the war made that pretty clear.
It could be, I'm not a military expert, but I have eyes in my face and I can see that they're not capable of gaining air superiority against one of the poorest countries in Europe. Maybe they didn't want to, but I believe they couldn't. I see that it's almost been three years since the Moskva sank, and there's still no replacement in sight. Maybe they don't want to build one, but I think they can't.
Maybe I'm quite deluded about Russia.
it sounds like they don't believe that they have a choice:
"European officials believe Trump is likely to agree to withdraw U.S. troops from the Baltics and perhaps further west, leaving the EU vulnerable to a Russian army that NATO governments warn is preparing for a larger conflict beyond Ukraine," the newspaper reported.
The EU leaders in Brussels are crazy! It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy if they keep being belligerent towards Russia. The EU is a middle power at best. Russia doesn't need any more territory, nor does it want to occupy land in the eastern Baltic's. It's fearmongering for the EU to manufacture consent.
Russia doesn’t need any more territory
Dear sir/madam, you may not be aware but Russia is currently engaged in an unprovoked war where it has invaded a neighboring country.
You forgot "full scale"
What planet do you live on — Objectively they were provoked, by NATO on their doorstep. Let's see how that would work if China or Russia parked their bases in both Mexico and Canada, minutes away from Washington ...
--- or cuba
Objectively, Russia threw a fit when the orange revolution happened. Even more so when Maidan happened and their stooge had to flee the country.
Having a former Soviet state turn into a functional democracy, with lower levels of corruption and a higher standard of living, might inspire forces within Russia to do the same, no?
Remember, ousting a democratically elected leader in a coup is "functional democracy", so long as it aligns with USA foreign interest, of course
this is how american propaganda works; it doesn't outright block the information that you need to make an informed decision like a chinese internet firewall. instead that information is hidden away from you, buried in news articles that you'll never read (or even be are that you need to read); or reports that get little to no air time on tv or social media; or couched in dense legalese that requires a law degree to understand and it's not because you're lazy or ignorant, but because you're distracted by your other shit that needs to get done and/or bills you need to pay.
in this case: the knowledge that that's been kept from you is that the orange revolution and the maidan protests are the result of american soft power exerting itself over ukraine's political system and that "functional democracy" was dangled over them like a carrot on a stick to join nato in a reality were not even americans get to enjoy such a democracy.
That's laughable.
Both happened due to Ukrainians being fed up with political corruption.
Ukraine went through horrible economical and political upheaval during the 90s. At the same time the western ukrainians were free to watch Polish TV, they interacted with their European brethren and were able to see how countries without chronical corruption worked.
The difference between them and their Russian counterparts is that they rose up and threw their corrupted leaders out on their asses a few times. I hope the Russians grow a spine within my lifetime.
Don't forget that Maidan was about Yanukovic's bait and switch when it came to Ukraine's economic ties with the EU and a potential route to EU-candidate status.
You may be convinced that the uprising were the result of American soft power, but I'm convinced that it was through experiencing the upheaval of the post Soviet 90s and their experience seeing neighboring former east-bloc brethren improving their lives during the same period.
the only thing that could be laughable is how uncritically most people accept the information that is given to them; but it's not laughable since it leads to so much death and suffering.
corruption is as rife in poland and the united states as much as it is in ukraine or russia; what makes any difference is that your regime green-lights the propaganda that informs you about the corruption that they want you to see while simultaneously red-lighting any other information. if you're russian or any kind of easterner, then that red-lighting is done via blatant bans like a chinese firewall; but if you're polish, american or any kind of westerner, then red-lighting is done by defunding (and/or making irrelevant) journalists/experts whose work could make you aware of the corruption that your regime doesn't want you to see.
i'm sure you're already aware of this at some level somewhere, so not applying this knowledge and uncritically accepting the depictions on polish TV is just plain bonkers. likewise, uncritically accepting the nucleus of each protest is also just as equally bonkers; the bare-bones minimum for critical thinking is analyzing who benefits by the actions taking place and searching for information (beyond the information that your regime wants you to see) will give you the answers.
Poland, the US and Ukraine are absolutely corrupt societies, but while the US is devolving into a Russia-esque regime, Poland and Ukraine are trying to improve their lot.
Let me respond in language you might understand:
I'm sure you're already aware of this at some level somewhere, so not applying this knowledge and uncritically accepting the depictions on Russian TV is just plain bonkers. Likewise, uncritically accepting the Russian talking points about each protest is also just as equally bonkers; the bare-bones minimum for critical thinking is analyzing who would have benefitted from the status-quo and searching for information (beyond the information that your regime wants you to see) will give you the answers.
it's understandable why you and an overwhelming majority won't accept reality since the propaganda you've ingested has given you an ideology that will not allow you see reality; it's also understand how this inability is leading us into yet another needless, bloody episode of history repeating itself as the western capitalist world descends into fascism because of it.
the message i've tried to bring here is the same one that republican and democratic leaders alike going all the way back to reagan & carter. american ambassadors like gfoeller, rundell, matlock and american secretaries of defense like mcnamara, gates, perry have tried to bring this message to nato, the un, and the american & ukranian people; the russians likewise have their own people who tried to give the same warning. two things can be true at the same time and refusing to acknowledge that led to this entirely pointless death and suffering and it will lead to more so long as people like you continue to double down on "chinese bots" and "russian talking points" instead of rational discourse.
there's no good reason why half a million people should have been liquidated and nothing was gained from it; only lost and only because people stuck their heads in the sand and refused to acknowledge reality.
This is more like Texas seceding on good terms, then after a couple of years a communist coup happens and the new Texas president joins the Latin American Nuclear Defense Organisation aimed against the US and supressess the non-Hispanic population of Texas prompting a small civil war within Texas by people not wanting to be part of a pro-Latin American government, and then the US helping and ultimately invading the parts of Texas that was never part of Mexico ever and then Mexico calling that a full-scale invasion of Texas that must be defended at all cost.
it's pure posturing
Material reality always wins in the end.
