!world@lemmy.world mod states that the MBFC bot is pushed by the instance admins. Instance admin and bot creator denies. Users ask for clarification. Mod ignores.
!world@lemmy.world mod states that the MBFC bot is pushed by the instance admins. Instance admin and bot creator denies. Users ask for clarification. Mod ignores.
Disclaimer: The issue here is not completely related to the bot presence, but more about the justification used. People would probably be less annoyed if the mods stated "this is our decision, and it is final", rather than to try to use admins as an excuse.
As usual, for people looking for other world news communities
- !globalnews@lemmy.zip
- !world@quokk.au (warning: single instance admin)
https://lemmy.world/comment/12825224
https://lemmy.world/comment/12834553
For other threads about the MBFC bot:
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Wow, much drama.
It sounds like adding one sentence to the effect that the ratings are centered using the USA metric would go so very far. Like adding units to a temperature measurement - someone could argue that they prefer Celsius (or Kelvin or whatever) to Fahrenheit, but at least Fahrenheit is better than no unit designation at all.
But the admins and mods also seem so very, very tired of all the BS that they have to wade through, that they aren't all that receptive anymore. I sympathize.
Part of the drama seems to be that buried underneath all the REEEEE responses, there are legitimate underlying worldview/POV issues, namely whether a bad implementation of a good idea is at all helpful vs. the purity argument that nothing that I don't like can be allowed to exist.
And ultimately, while I did see one heartwarming exception (backed up with admin support by calling for such), the vast majority of people simply complain about wanting better-er-est service entirely for free. As opposed to making an alternative, e.g. a different news community on Lemmy, which would require actual effort put forth by people volunteering their time as mods. Which probably should be done anyway to avoid the monolithic mega-community structures that we all tried to get away from on Reddit - and has been done in at least two cases, though most people commenting seemed entirely unaware of that.
And then the justification issue on top of all of that messy background as well.
But the admins and mods also seem so very, very tired of all the BS that they have to wade through, that they aren’t all that receptive anymore. I sympathize.
There's a long history of text discussion forums where a sizable number of the users get up in arms like this, and it usually precedes people abandoning the forum. It happened on Slashdot, then Digg, and recently on Reddit.
The people who post the stories and write the comments create the forum and make it continue. I'm not trying to discount the hard, unappreciated work that mods and administrators do. But there seems to be this common misperception that because they do that hard, unappreciated work, it's okay for them to ignore the community when it speaks with a clear and cohesive voice that something is a problem. People have all kinds of options for where to spend their "typing on the internet" time, and it's pretty easy to switch.
Maybe it's because anyone who's in that moderation role is accustomed to dealing with people whining about nonsense, and a lot of members of the community making a big deal about stuff that doesn't matter, and so it's sometimes hard for them to recognize a valid concern that's widely shared by the community. I don't know. Like I say, I'm not trying to say I don't appreciate the unrewarding work of moderation. But "it's not that important" cuts both ways. If you treat your forum and the way people want it to be as a bunch of distracting noise, they're going decide you're a waste of time and go on their way, and once that reputation as a shit pile is solidly established about a particular forum, it tends to be permanent.
Very well put.
If it helps to reveal my personal bias: I recall personally taking a look at that bot when it first came out, and commenting against it, plus downvoting it often after that. I did not go so far as to block it but nowadays I do simply ignore it every time I see it. I am not a fan - and this despite the fact that I consistently say things along the lines that we (as humans, and a global Lemmy/Fediverse community) NEED such a tool.
Though after reading through the comments, I have more respect for it than I once did. It seems an imperfect solution to a difficult problem. There are definitely kinks to work out, like how it receives advertising money and looks to be giving kickbacks to the LW admins, as they are the ones receiving either all or at least a portion of that money. Mind you, those funds might not even defray a fraction of their operating costs, so I cannot come down firmly on the side of a "judgement" here, just saying that the deeper one peers into this, the more murky the situation gets, when money gets involved.
Also oddly, I both have more respect for it, yet potentially less than ever before, given how it may inappropriately combine unrelated scores in a manner that serves to further right-wing propaganda. HOWEVER, again, that is nation-dependent, which while this is in reference to a global community, the bot itself seems to originate in the USA, so again... if someone wants to make another one, then they need to get busy and make it happen - which I noted seeing one such example, and the admins say that they welcome it and would love to add it to the bot to present both.
Anyway, what I find most highly striking is how both sides have valid points. Not the REEEEEE obviously (sadly, that appears on both sides as well - which is all the more notable when coming from a position of leadership and authority than a mere user who wants to vent their uninformed opinions), but beyond that, the admins are right to say that e.g. what other options are available that do not cost money that is not available to be spent? And yes, as you pointed out, the community has a valid point that they don't want to merely block it and move on, b/c then new users are going to still be exposed to it - if it is true that it is a bad thing, then it needs to be opposed from existing at all, or at least the labelling must be substantially improved. "First they came for..." means that we live in a global society, so that things that impact others (the least of these...) should be cared about as well, rather than our concern restricted to solely those matters that affect us directly.
And too, the community PAYS for the admins. I don't know how much, but some, so there is a sense of "ownership" there. Hence people not wanting to simply switch over to e.g. !globalnews@lemmy.zip, which is quite a nice alternative even if people don't seem to know about it (lemmy.zip says that it has 2.72K active users/month, compared to lemmy.world saying that !world@lemmy.world has 12K).
Another aspect is how the bot must be "opt-out" rather than opt-in. Much like receiving updates from ChapoTrapHouse or people's comments from lemmy.ml are on so very many instances (especially lemm.ee) - there are some things that should be opt-in, rather than people exposed to that crap first and then they have to opt-out. The counterpoint is that the technology available for Lemmy suck ass; and yet with the heavy still further counterpoint that Lemmy is still better than most anything else I have ever seen? So the admins seem to have a point that while the tool being opt-out rather than opt-in is not ideal, that is a limitation that they are constrained to having to work with.
Ultimately, as you said, it boils down to (like Reddit): will people simply put up with it, or move? !globalnews@lemmy.zip exists, and !world@quokk.au seems more problematic but it too, and someone can always create another. Or someone can do the hard work to create actual GitHub repo feature requests, like adding in a sentence to say how much the bot is biased towards the USA definitions of left and right, or they could create a post to talk about it. MOST people talking about it though - including myself - are not all that well-informed about the situation, especially prior to reading these links that Blaze offered today. Thus it will require someone actually stepping up to do work, or else what good does all the complaining do? That much at least I understand from the admin & mod's perspectives, even as I also understand the other side's POV that the situation is far from ideal, and might even be a for-profit conspiracy to drive up advertising revenue from their tool, on their instance, in their community, that nonetheless uses (abuses?) the federation principles to be sent out to people around the world. Thus the situation represents a microcosm of "news" in general around the world: ultimately, who is going to pay for it, and if nobody, then how can we complain when it goes away (or awry)?
This ofc is a lot of words to say that "I do not know fully what is going on, but it's interesting nonetheless". :-)
there is no money involved for lemmy.world.
we are not paying for access to the MBFC database, they provide this for us free of charge, and we also don't receive any money from MBFC.
the community PAYS for the admins
this is straight up wrong, or at the very least misleading. LW/FHF admins receive zero money from any of the donations, all time spent is volunteered.
Thanks for the clarification:-)
What do you think now the block rate has been published in the comments? Should communities change their defaults to cater to the vocal 1.2% of subscribers who can (and have) easily blocked the bot anyway, or make the assumption that 98.8% of users either don't care, or find it useful, and cater to them instead? A vocal minority like that can make a lot of noise, but it seems pretty clear they aren't representative of the vast majority of users.
I like to get on the bus playing music on my phone at full volume. 3 people told me today that they want me to turn it off. There were 35 people on the bus, so clearly 91% of the people on the bus want to rock out with me.
Edit: A better analogy is that 3,500 people in the city have bus passes, and 18 people have been on a bus with me and told me to turn off my music or bought themselves headphones since I’ve been doing this every day, but the general flaw should be apparent.
Edit: @Blaze@feddit.org makes an excellent point. The better analogy is that 3,500 people in the city have bus passes, I've seen 35 people on the bus wearing noise-cancelling headphones at some point, and the number of people who've asked me to stop doing it is irrelevant to me.
Someone else pointed out that not blocking the bot allows people to still downvote it to show their constant unhappiness with it