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  • It's time for Firefox and others to sue Google for antitrust. When you're using your monopoly to force web "standards" (instead of having an independent third party set standards) that cause developers to stop supporting your rival browser is clearly illegal monopoly actions.

  • ELI5 please?

    Will using Firefox fix it?

    What can we do to make them fail?

    • It's a long video with many points and better if you watch it. However, here's a break down of key points, made to be as simple as possible - there's a lot more technical stuff, but I'll try to keep it concise and less technical.

      This is probably about a 10 minute read if these concepts are not familiar to you:

      1. Google owns Chrome (not Chromium), and they dominate the market ever since they won the internet browser wars.
      2. As an amoral corporation (not evil, simply lacking morals), their business runs on advertisements.
      3. They're revealing a new feature called Manifest v3 which is a locked down version of the browser that's built around what they feel is security and trust.
      4. Under their proposal for Manivest v3, your browser will have to be "verified" in an attempt to keep you "safe". Are you a human or a bot? They're making a more trusted internet with trusted software.
      5. Companies like Netflix, news web sites, etc. will eat this up and implement the proper protocols to use Manifest v3. To visit your bank's web site which has this protocol, you'll need to use Chrome's browser.
      6. Using Chrome's browser, you'll need to authenticate yourself and become a "trusted" user. With this enabled, you can then visit your bank's web site.
      7. If you use an alternative browser that isn't approved, you won't be able to use that web site.
      8. Eventually other corporations will implement these protocols, too, and you'll be locked out from participating in the internet.
      9. Google, an ad company, gets to control advertisements better, gets to learn more about their users, and now gets to mark them as "trusted". In other words, you get the North Korean version of the internet, "Mommy and Daddy's Safe and Approved Internet". Meanwhile, North Korea and Mom/Dad get to spy on you, see what you're up to, monitor you, control you, and shape you. The benefit is they also make money off you by selling the information they learn about you.

      Why is this bad:

      1. It's censorship. It's like your mom and dad grabbing your phone, computer, enabling severe parental controls, giving it back to you, and they get to see and approve what you're allowed to do and say at any time. Apply that same protocol to your money, too. Want to send money through the internet using PayPal? Even more censorship. Want to watch Netflix? Your parents lock it down so only certain things can be watched, at certain times, and certainly under their permission.
      2. It buries competition and makes Google even more of a monopoly. We already know Google Search is bad (advertisements, phishing web sites, auto-generated content web sites are always the first results in Google.
      3. Digital Rights Management. Just a bit north of 20 years ago, when you purchased a digital product, you could own it. Streaming didn't exist. In an age where "buying" no longer means "owning", this new protocol will further enforce DRM. Pay for Netflix and want to watch it? You'll have to be a Trusted User that uses Chrome. Bought a new video game you're excited to play on Steam? You'll need to be a Trusted User. Don't want to stream music through Spotify and instead use something like Bandcamp? To make a purchase at Bandcamp, you'll need to be a Trusted User. Don't want to buy something through Bandcamp and instead just download what you already paid for? You guessed right - you'll need to be a trusted user to even login and reach your downloads. Don't forget your downloads are hosted on servers that are run by Google and Amazon - you'll have to be a trusted user in order to download from that server.

      Can I use Firefox and stop using any Chromium browser

      • Most browsers are Chromium: Chrome, Brave, Ungoogled Chromium to name a few. They will all eventually implement Manifest v3, and if they don't, they will disappear.
      • Firefox is not Chromium, but think about how many users use Firefox now. Google Chrome has the overwhelming market share and has captured users into their platform.
      • Because the majority of users use Chrome, corporations have to evolve to adopt Manifest v3: banking web sites, governments, job applications, benefits, healthcare, personal emergency, etc. All of these will be forced to adopt it because that's where the users are, and Google will force corporations to participate. After all, banking web sites will face less downtime through Manifest v3, because bots won't be able to spam them and try to get in. Netflix will have to spend less money on security, because only trusted users will be able to even reach Netflix. Your "free" email service through Gmail now stops all spam because it only accepts incoming messages from trusted users. Of course everyone will adopt it - Google is safe, secure, and trusted. And best of all it's "free"!
      • If you use Firefox now and continue to use it, you'll be safe for several years. For now.

      What can we do?

      • Right now, you can opt out of using Chrome by using Firefox and other decentralized tools.
      • In the not too distant future, there's not much that you can do. Educating users to switch from Chrome, use Linux, use stock Android (e.g., Graphene OS), will not help.
      • Eventually, the users that use Firefox, Linux, stock de-googled Android will get locked out. An average user isn't going to invest their time to learn these platforms. They'll stick with what works: "I can login to Chrome and watch my Netflix and pay my bills. You're telling me that this Linux thing doesn't let me do that? Screw that, I'll use Chrome OS - at least my shit works! What's wrong with these Linux developers, they can't get anything right! They should take a lesson from Google and fix their shit."
      • Write your politicians and hope that some governments will help restrict this rollout. Keep in mind though that some version of this will get passed and approved. Also don't forget that corrupt regulators and politicians are captured and owned by corporations. This will get passed, there's no doubt about it.

      What will happen 20 years from now?

      • Humans have tenacity. You can only frustrate humans so much before they break. Take away too many of their freedoms, impose many restrictions, and eventually they will break.
      • The trick for all of time, seen throughout history by all our overlords, kings, emperors, etc. is to find a careful balance. Take away "just enough" freedoms. Give them "just enough". Work them until they're tired, but don't let them break. And of course, give them a few handouts here and there, but not enough to make their lives easy.
      • Manifest v3 (or its derivative) will be implemented. There's no doubt about that at all.
      • The 99% of the population will continue to use these services because they want to be able to participate: They have to pay bills, access money, access healthcare, use government systems, do education, have entertainment, etc.
      • The 99% will continue to use this because they won't care. So long as they can be happy enough, they will persist.
      • Eventually, an infinitesimally small minority will be affected by something. Something will break and cause them to snap, and they will do the only thing that an individual human can do: opt out.
      • That small minority will leave, opt out, and refuse to participate in the system. Those clusters will grow at an extremely small rate because they're able to recognize the whole picture and see that personal freedoms are so restricted. They'll remember their history and learn from it.
      • Enter decentralization - the removal of power from centralized authority.
      • Those who recognize decentralization will build new platforms, and others will eventually follow. This is why the Fediverse and Bitcoin exist. They recognize the problem of centralization and are full of users who decided to opt out. The Fediverse adoption exploded with the 2023 Reddit API problem, and the constant Twitter issues under Elon Musk. Bitcoin happened in 2009 out of anger from the 2008 global financial crisis when "Satoshi Nakomoto" gave, as a gift to the world, a permissionless peer-to-peer decentralized economy of money that had "rules, but without rulers".

      What happens 20+ years from now?

      • In 30 years when more of the population realizes their freedoms are under attack, they'll consult the ones who left 10 years previously.
      • In 40 years, you might have choice. There may be a "new Firefox" that pops up after the old Firefox was wiped out 10 years ago, and let's you use the internet, your IP, and your content in a different way.
      • The trick is to train yourself to see the big picture. You'll never defeat your overlords - they're behind tall walls and they control the money. However, you can opt out. You can refuse to participate. But by doing so, remember that you will be locked out. That's not an easy choice to make.
      • But those users that do opt out, they will be the ones that were pushed too far. This is why refugees leave their homes - they just want to be safe, they want to be alright, they want their freedom from their opressors.
      • We will have "Google Internet" (Manifest v3) refugees one day.

      “We no longer have choice. We no longer have voice. And what is left when you have no choice and no voice? Exit.” - Andreas Antonopoulos

    • Getting more people to start using Firefox instead of Chrome would be the best way to "vote with our wallets" in this case. Though some of the Chromium forks do make easier sells, but they are much much more likely to just go with whatever Google does by using the same base. So if Google forces something into Chromium in order to keep being able to functioning and being compatible (in web standards, security updates, and the massive extension library). It will just force the use of whatever Google wants, and make Google the de facto boss of how we are "allowed" to use the internet.

  • There is no ecosystem as mature, polished and integrated as Apple’s. I am all in with them and the way all their devices and services work together is just marvellous.

    But the answer to your general question is you will need to go all in on a single company. And TBH, you should. They are all bad to some degree. But cobbling together a pipeline of various manufacturers will always result in a terrible experience, and you’ll be generally paying the same for it anyway.

  • There is no ecosystem as mature, polished and integrated as Apple’s. I am all in with them and the way all their devices and services work together is just marvellous.

    But the answer to your general question is you will need to go all in on a single company. And TBH, you should. They are all bad to some degree. But cobbling together a pipeline of various manufacturers will always result in a terrible experience, and you’ll be generally paying the same for it anyway.

221 comments