[Discussion] Opinion on Motorbikes as Car Replacements
[Discussion] Opinion on Motorbikes as Car Replacements
I'm about to get a motorbike and, while this is in no ways reasoning for getting the bike (it's pretty much entirely for fun), it's had me thinking a bit about the social impact of motorbikes/scooters, especially if they were widely used (like they are in India, South-East Asia, and a couple other places) for commuting.
They're obviously more efficient in many ways. Less fuel usage, less material required to manufacture and transport, less space required both when driving and for parking, less infrastructure maintenance cost, etc. However, they're less efficient for all these things than the solutions mostly advocated by this and similar communities - namely public transport, cycling and walking. All of which are significantly better.
In contrast to those alternatives, though, motorbikes need basically no infrastructure development to be used, so it would be far easier to make incremental progress with individuals riding a bike instead of taking the car, rather than requiring organised political action.
Specifically for the USA and, to a lesser extent, the more similar countries like Canada and Australia, it's probably also more socially acceptable to not be riding public transport with the plebeians, or having to do physical exercise. And you can easily overcompensate with a massive bike, while still being far better than the massive cars coming out of the US - a litre bike is big, while a litre car is tiny. Obviously this isn't a 'good' reason, but it does seem to be a real consideration.
The main counter-argument I can think of is safety. But if you look at the countries where motorbikes and scooters are common, they seem safer than riding a motorbike in Western countries (anecdotally, from people who have ridden there on trips but wouldn't think of it at home; if anyone can find statistics for it, I'd love to see them). I'd say this is because of their prevalence. You'd get rid of the selection bias for risk-takers, and for high-power bikes. You'd also reduce the issue that car drivers aren't aware of motorcyclists, and often don't notice them. Any collision that does happen would also be more likely between two motorbikes, which would be less deadly than a motorbike and a car. And if we transpose this prevalence of motorbikes to a western country with stricter regulations around licensing, required safety gear, road rules, etc., surely this would be even less dangerous than it is in those countries.
Also, the safety argument seems quite similar to the safety argument for large SUVs for ferrying kids to school. Inside the car, you're safer, but that's at the cost of safety and health of those outside the car, as well as all the other negative effects we're all aware of. Obviously it's not quite to the same extent, but it just strikes me as similar.
So, those are my opinions, which ended up a bit longer than I was expecting... But the reason for posting is that I'd love to hear yours. Do you think largely replacing cars with motorbikes would be beneficial but insufficient, infeasible, or do you think it would actually be worse?
I've been riding for 30 years and am an advocate for motorcycling in general. Unfortunately, there are several very good reasons I can think of why this would not work in the US and by extension, Canada and Australia.
Skill:
Motorcycling is not for everyone. It requires a higher level of skill to operate a motorcycle than a car. It requires both hands and both feet, excluding many people with disabilities that otherwise could drive a car with little to no modifications.Even small mistakes on a motorcycle have a huge impact.
Many people are intimidated by motorcycle riding.
Convenience:
I don't advocate multi tasking when driving but I'm always sipping on a coffee or water bottle when I'm driving. You can rig up something on a motorcycle but it's awkward.I have a communication set up in my helmet so I can take calls and listen to music, but it's only so-so. The wind noise interferes with the voice commands and gloves make touch screen usage awkward.
Gear:
There's no protection from the weather or an accident other than what you wear. The appropriate gear then becomes a burden to carry around when you reach your destination (I'm an "All The Gear, All The Time" kind of guy so I always wear full face helmet, gloves, kevlar pants with padding over my regular clothes, and either a cordura, kevlar, or racing leather jacket - all with padding, and boots. The leather jacket weighs about 15 lbs by itself). Lugging that around is a pain in the ass, and the boots aren't comfortable for walking long distances. Two armfuls of gear is simply not conducive for things like running errands, going to school where you go from class to class across a large campus, or working in a job where you can't securely store all that gear.Not wearing gear is a terrible idea; a fender bender in a car doesn't throw you on the asphalt. My uncle got in and accident on a moped in a parking lot in Japan. Broke his jaw. He was going 5 mph.
Proper gear is bulky, heavy, and expensive, and it only can do so much in the way of protection and comfort.
Weather:
Many places have short riding seasons; can't ride in snow, it's brutal to ride in dry conditions when it's below about 30 degrees Fahrenheit, it's brutal to ride in super humid conditions, it's brutal to ride in desert heat.It's less safe to ride in wet conditions, period. Traction is an issue, emergency breaking is an issue, visibility is an issue, and of course, getting wet. If it's cold and you get wet, hypothermia is an issue.
Moderate winds are a safety issue. I've been blown across a full lane of traffic. I've been blown into incoming traffic (luckily no one was coming the other way, but that was super lucky), you can be blown off of an elevated freeway section since the guard rails only go up about 3 feet in most places.
Cargo:
Limited cargo space. Ever try grocery shopping on a motorcycle? Forget that value pack of toilet paper. Costco? Um, nope.Family:
Totally unusable for a family. Can't transport young kids at all (infants and toddlers), can't go anywhere with a spouse AND children (yes I've seen the photos of a whole family on a scooter in SE Asia and wherever else. It's not a good idea there and it's not a good idea here because it's not a good idea at all. Full stop.), can't transport kids with musical instruments or sports equipment.Other drivers:
There would still be other drivers on the road and they're the single most detrimental element to motorcycle safety.Travel:
I have a touring bike and particularly enjoy motorcycle travel, but it's way easier and more comfortable in a car, and you can bring more stuff and travel with more people.Bottom line:
Could you replace some single and couples trips, some times of the year, in some parts of the US, Canada, and Australia? Yes. Will it make a difference? I believe it would not even move the needle.I love the idea of a world more calibrated for motorcycles and scooters and have had the thoughts you propose here myself. The particular countries you cite have populations that prohibit mass adoption on a scale where it would have a measurable impact. I'm my opinion.
Great comment! I think you covered the negatives very well.
Thanks!
Where are my Reddit awards when I suddenly want them?
Great post.
I would post a Lemmy Platinum jpeg I stole from someone else, but most instances have disabled pictures at the mo 😅
Also agree, this is a very informative and detailed post
Thanks!
@clever_sardonic_name @donnachaidh It seems you're forgetting the most important point: motorcycles kill as many people as cars, if not more. So we wouldn't be really be better off with motorcycles instead of cars.
Lol nope. Wildly incorrect!
In 2021, there were the most motorcycle fatalities since records were collected in the mid 1970s at 6,084. Compared to 26,585 passenger car fatalities the same year. So at the statistical peak, there were still ~4.37 car fatalities for every 1 motorcycle fatality.
See report from Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, Highway Loss Data Institute
You're likely thinking about the rate of deaths per 100,000 vehicles which is much higher for motorcycles than cars.
Look at any road, anywhere, any time of day, any time of year and you will see way more cars than motorcycles. There simply aren't enough motorcycle on the road to account for more fatalities than cars.
It's a thermal engine for only one or two people, it's incredibly loud, it needs big roads to go fast, it has poor cargo space... I like bikes for the aesthetics but I don't think they are a step in the right direction.
Two observations applying to me personally:
Motorcycles aren't actually uniformly more fuel efficient than cars despite the size. Many full sized ones will actually use as much fuel as a car on commuter trips. The engines are massively more wasteful. Mopeds or scooters will fare better. Maintenance can also be costly. But really, the whole efficiency difference is probably obsoleted by using electricity instead of gasoline.
Two wheeled vehicles aren't that useful in actual winter snow and ice. They are completely unsafe if you have to ride in traffic with cars and lorries etc. On light traffic routes, bicycles do work, at slightly above walking speed. Quad bikes, trikes or light vehicles, barely doable, but the cost and parking is as bad as with cars and weather resistance is much worse. Safety is worse, though not as bad as two wheels.
Somewhere, for someone, maybe they are an economical option, but these observations killed the idea for me. If I can't walk or cycle, because of distance and time mostly, or use public transport, a car is the only viable option for year round commute where I live. Electric preferrably.
I wish it wasn't.
Two wheeled vehicles aren’t that useful in actual winter snow and ice
Most cars aren't that useful in actual winter snow and ice. That's why we plow the roads.
I bike in Canada. Bicycles work just fine with winter tires, just like cars. You don't even need a fat bike as long as the road is plowed.
I think they’re fine.
My biggest problem with them is the noise, but that can be solved with electric bikes.
The thing is, in what I imagine as an ideal city with everything nearby, a motorbike wouldn’t really be that useful as you’d never need to go faster than an electric bike could take you.
Noise is a huge issue. That aspect alone makes me hate motorbikes.
Without any noise, they would be mostly fine, better than cars anyway.
Stock, they're not supposed to be that loud per regulation. Even Harley's,a brand I particularly dislike. Modern bikes have a computer-controlled valve before the muffler to attenuate noise for bikes over a certain power. This way big engines can be quiet when rolling around neighborhoods, but give you full power when you're on the track.
That people go wot on the highway, I also am not the biggest fan, but humans who like bikes, like going fast