What are things considered romantic, to be avoided in a relationship?
What are things considered romantic, to be avoided in a relationship?
My partner and I just had a talk about it. Basically, she celebrated her birthday today. I was on her party, and it was fun, but I left after around 2 hours to get home and relax a bit. After I arrived, a friend of mine texted me and asked me if I wanted to go to a lake and see the sunset. I agreed, we went to the lake and went swimming in it; it was really nice. Later, after arriving at my partners, she talked with me that it hurts her that I went out with someone else on her birthday, doing a romantically coded activity.
To be honest, I realize that I don't have a single clue what is coded as a romantically coded activity. For me, this was something completely okay and appropriate, because it is for me clearly a friend-thing; but my partner explained to me that the combination of going out with another person on her birthday and going to a sea, which is a secluded place, just heavily connotates it in a romantic way.
I understand that what I've done here wasn't right, and that I have responsibility here. Even though I didn't want to hurt my partner, it is still my responsibility to inform myself here on romantically conmotated things you shouldn't do in a partnership. So, dear people of Lemmy, what does constitute a romantic moment?
Edit: I've left out some information which seems to be important for the whole picture . I've copied it out of my comment and adding it here:
Me and my gf got together in August of last year, so basically 8 months ago; we were friends for half a year before that. She got cheated on in her long distance relationship before.
The friend who invited me to the sea I actually know for almost as long as my partner, from the beginning of Uni. She had a breakup from a three-year old relationship a few months ago, and I was there to support her. I didn't clarify before though if she was okay with me cuddling with people or not; I assumed it was with her, because it was okay in her LDR before - which was wrong of me. I overstepped the boundaries of my partner here.
The friend in question kissed me at the neck while I was at hers. I talked with her about it and let her know that I wasn't okay with it, to which she reacted quite hurt. She then told me that we shouldn't be friends, but two weeks ago she collapsed at Uni and I brought her home. Now we are meeting again.
While I'm writing this down, I'm actually starting to notice that there are a lot of other factors playing in why my partner is upset here. She has been cheated on in the past, which definitely leads her to feel uncomfortable about my actions, even though I obviously don't want to cheat. I broke a societally unwritten rule of not meeting people in romantically coded settings on your partners birthday. And I overstepped the boundary of my partner before by cuddling with the friend without my partners consent.
You left their party after a couple hours to relax. I'm guessing you were feeling a little overstimulated and needing a break, and your partner probably realized this as well and was willing to let you decompress.
Then you accepted an invitation to socialize with someone else, which to your partner probably seemed like you needed a break from them but not someone else. Of course, this is not a one-to-one situation, I'm sure swimming and a sunset is much more restful and relaxing than a birthday party, but from their perspective they probably wished you could have stayed but respected you needed a break. Now they're finding out that you didn't necessarily take a break from socializing, so it looks somewhat more like you needed a break from them.
Again, I know that isn't exactly what happened, and it isn't the message you meant to give with your actions, but that's my attempt to see things from their perspective based on what we've been told.
I think you've summarized it pretty well, and as far as I can judge it is exactly how my partner received it. I think I definitely needed a break from this specific birthday party, but also I needed a bit of time away from her. I am not sure however how to communicate it in an appropriate way though.
I can absolutely relate to what you're describing. Sometimes you need a break from a specific person, and it is not because you dislike them, you just really need a break. This is, from what I can tell, not a common neurotypical experience and so not something that neurotypical folks can relate to, and it's hard to put it into words as a way that sounds anything other than "I don't like being around you".
The closest I can come to putting it into words is that sometimes my mind behaves like a cat. One moment you're both enjoying each other's company, the next I'm totally full and need to go. It's not about any specific person, it can happen with anybody I'm around.
It's good that you're working to understand how to express your experience to others, it's difficult but worth the time to strengthen relationships. Hopefully your partner understands that it's not the easiest thing.
Wait, you left her on her birthday, to go watch a sunset with someone who is presumably of the opposite sex, and also swam with them in a lake?
Yes, exactly.
I think when my partner put it that way, I also was a bit "huh, wait a second - I don't really understand WHY it is romantically coded, but I get that it hurt you".
But yeah, I think I fucked up a bit there, tbh :/
You're missing a critical step. If you call someone a partner, it means that you two are standing together, equal halves. So of course with everything you do, you need to ask yourself "how would I feel about doing this and how would my other half feel about me doing this?". It sounds like you skipped that second part.
Talk to your partner about what they consider romantic activities, because everyone has a different idea of what is or is not romantic. It can also depend on other bits of context. For example, going to a fancy dinner with one friend might be seen as romantic by your partner, but a fancy dinner with a sibling or group of friends might not be.
The timing could also be a bigger factor than the activity itself. Your partner might feel offended that you chose to leave the birthday celebration/activities for personal time to relax and unwind, only to then go and do something with a different friend. Even if that activity with the other friend wasn't seen as a romantic activity, your partner might have still been upset that they were perceived as a lower priority on their birthday, a day they might have expected to be more prioritized by them.
Even further, different people have different degrees of, for lack of a better term here, jealousy towards their partner in regards to activities. I'm not implying your partner is toxic or a jealous sort, but a lunch "date" with a friend is acceptable for some partners, but crosses the line for others.
Yes, makes sense. I think for my partner it was also really impactful that I did it on her birthday. For me, the logic was "okay, so I can't go back to her party, because many people; another person invited me to fun activity, where I can participate; so why not?"
I think this is something I'll try to learn that timing is really important to consider here. I think I only view the action itself, which I don't think is wrong - but it seems that the context that it happened on the birthday of my friend is really important here.
Literally anything can be romantic, but watching the sunset on the beach is a prime example of a classic romantic activity, but that does not mean you can't watch a sunset on the beach platonically. What makes a situation romantic is if there is romance. Getting dressed up and going out for dinner for two at a nice restaurant can be romantic or just dinner with a friend at a nice place. Going thrift store shopping can be romantic, or just a fun time with a friend. I would look up some "romantic date ideas" to get a rough idea of romantic themes to inform you better.
Some people expect their partner to make their birthday all about them, that can lessen with age. Not devoting your entire day to your partner on their birthday may be the problem.
If your partner feels there is potential for some sort of romantic involvement with this friend, perceived or real, then you need to talk with them and understand if they know or believe something you don't or if they feel insecure and if there is a lack of trust.
If you didn't tell them what you planned to do, that may be the problem. If you had to ask permission, that isn't healthy in a relationship. Asking them how they feel about you going and making your decision to go, counting their opinion, is wise but understand that you should be able to go do things with your friends and you shouldn't have to ask permission.
If they wanted to go because that sounded like fun and you didn't try to invite them on their birthday, that may be the problem. Just inviting them to come with isn't fair to your friend that wanted to hang out with you and not feel like a 3rd wheel and divide your attention. You can always make plans with your partner on another day and respect the time you have with them and friends.
There are a lot of aspects of this situation that can be why your partner is upset, and it may not be the activity itself. You have to sit down with them and talk to them so you understand their position, they understand your position, and the two of you can come to an understanding and know what may need work in the relationship.
If you didn't tell them what you planned to do, that may be the problem. If you had to ask permission, that isn't healthy in a relationship. Asking them how they feel about you going and making your decision to go, counting their opinion, is wise but understand that you should be able to go do things with your friends and you shouldn't have to ask permission.
I think this is a big point, especially if your partner has been cheated on in the past. There's a big difference between actively hiding a thing and not telling someone just because it didn't seem relevant or necessary, but manipulators blur that line and it can mean that people who have experienced being cheated on may be hyper vigilant in future relationships.
100%
You can see my other comment to the original commentor for more details. My partner got cheated on in her previous relationship, which definitely plays into here, and I overstepped the boundaries of my partner (and my friend overstepped my boundaries). For that exact reason though I let her know that I was going to the friend and when exactly I plan on going back, so that all people involved could feel safe.
Just inviting them to come with isn’t fair to your friend that wanted to hang out with you... You can always make plans with your partner on another day
Or you can make plans with your friend on another day. it is generally considered the "socially acceptable" thing to prioritize someone on special days like birthdays. Even if you have only give a bit more priority on someone's birthday, I would think that a partner already has enough extra priority that "I will spend time with only you" is not an unreasonable request. It's also not clear how long OP has been in this relationship. Based on the miscommunications, probably not long. If it's a serious relationship, then giving your partner extra priority sends the message that you find the relationship serious. Otherwise the message is "you are a priority person in my life and this is a priority day for you, but this other person is even higher priority still."
Asking them how they feel about you going ... understand that you should be able to go do things with your friends and you shouldn’t have to ask permission.
If you ask someone how they feel, and express they would be hurt, but you do the thing anyway, then you are saying that you don't care if you hurt them, and "Well i didnt know it would hurt you" is now a lie. Your options are to either not hurt them (by talking through the situation until it doesn't hurt them, or simply not doing the thing), or hurt them. But if you hurt them willingly, you are the one doing damage to your relationship. If you don't think they are being reasonable, then you may be in a toxic relationship and should end it. If you just don't care about their feelings, then you are definitely in a bad relationship and should end it. Asking isn't about "permission", it is about communicating that you value their input and their feelings.
Life is complicated, so "priority" doesn't mean that something is the only thing that matters but it does mean that it should factor into your decision making.
Hmmm, I understand. I can add some more information about it - let me know if you think it should be included in the main text. I didn't include it because I didn't felt it necessary for the question, but I'm not sure about it anymore.
Me and my gf got together in August of last year, so basically 8 months ago; we were friends for half a year before that. She got cheated on in her long distance relationship before.
The friend who invited me to the sea I actually know for almost as long as my partner, from the beginning of Uni. She had a breakup from a three-year old relationship a few months ago, and I was there to support her. I didn't clarify before though if she was okay with me cuddling with people or not; I assumed it was with her, because it was okay in her LDR before - which was wrong of me. I overstepped the boundaries of my partner here.
The friend in question kissed me at the neck while I was at hers. I talked with her about it and let her know that I wasn't okay with it, to which she reacted quite hurt. She then told me that we shouldn't be friends, but two weeks ago she collapsed at Uni and I brought her home. Now we are meeting again.
While I'm writing this down, I'm actually starting to notice that there are a lot of other factors playing in why my partner is upset here. She has been cheated on in the past, which definitely leads her to feel uncomfortable about my actions, even though I obviously don't want to cheat. I broke a societally unwritten rule of not meeting people in romantically coded settings on your partners birthday. And I overstepped the boundary of my partner before by cuddling with the friend without my partners consent.
Am I the asshole here?
You are in the wrong on many fronts. Including that information in the OP is a good idea so the bigger picture is understood.
Your friend has very clear romantic interest in you and likely has for a while, she doesn't respect your relationship with your girlfriend, and she doesn't want to give up trying to steal you from your girlfriend. Until she can respect your relationship, you should not be alone with her. Even if you didn't consider going to the beach with her a date, she was trying to take you on a date. By trying to be her friend, you are probably leading her on and she probably thinks the attention you are giving her is an indication that you have romantic interest in her that is held back by your current relationship. She probably thinks that being persistent and pushing or overstepping the platonic line will be rewarded. If you have no interest in her, she needs to know that.
Your girlfriend's issues related to being cheated on need to be considered. She should be working on that, but you need to work with her on that by being open and honest to build trust because she doesn't trust you. If she doesn't know the whole story between you and your friend, you need to tell your girlfriend everything. Understand that your girlfriend probably is paranoid that you are going to cheat on her like that other guy and she may constantly be looking for signs that you are or will cheat on her because she probably looked at the last relationship for signs that she missed and is applying that to your relationship. If the two of you don't work on her infidelity concerns, it will drive a wedge between the two of you and lead to the relationship failing even if everything else in the relationship is fantastic. It isn't fair to you for her to suspect you might cheat on her just because some other guy did, but your history with your friend has given your girlfriend plenty of cause to be suspicious of you.
You also should be thinking about what is best for you. There are two women that want to be with you and one might be better than the other, even if that isn't your girlfriend. Staying with the wrong person isn't fair to 3 people.
So this is actually really important context OP. If you've "overstepped" with this friend before then your GF may already feel a bit cheated on. For you to leave her birthday to specifically meet this particular friend given your background info? That's a pretty devastating blow to the trust in your relationship.
There is no socially acceptable way to tell your GF "I needed a break from you , on your birthday, so I went to hang out with a woman actively trying to get me to cheat on you with her." Because it definitely sounds like thats what this friend was trying to do, if she's allistic there is no world in which she wasn't trying to take you on a date. (I understand meeting your friend wasn't preplanned, that matters very little here.)
Honestly OP I know you said in another comment that it hurt you that your GFs friends told her to break up with you but I'm seriously surprised she didn't. This is gonna sound mean but I really just want to be as clear as possible, so I appologize for how blunt and rude Im gonna be in this next part. I just want to make sure you understand whats likely happening in you GFs social circle. Full disclosure, if I had the information from these comments and was your GFs friend I would be telling her, "He cheated on you on your birthday, and he'll do it again. You need to break up with him. He doesnt care about you. Hes more into his friend." And I'd be repeating it to her every single time you saw this particular friend. It's wild to me that you're not single right now. I don't know of a single allistic person who would read this story, with the added context, and not assume youre at least trying to cheat on your girlfriend. If you want this to have a chance with your GF given her history of being cheated on then you may need to put this friendship on the backburner.
On the flip side, it does sound like you might care more about this friend than your girlfriend. Given the sexual orientations that you've outlined elsewhere have you considered dating this friend instead of your GF? All three of you might be happier? Just food for thought.
Going to a secluded area at sunset to swim and hang out is a fairly cliche romantic thing that happens in TV and movies.
Doing so while leaving another friend's birthday party is a cliche faux pas.
I'm generally confused by what media portrays as romantic (or rude), but I have to assume many of the gestures shown in it is common among NT people.
Actually, now that you mention it I get the reference as well :/ I honestly haven't thought of it at all - but now I better understand why my partner was so irritated about it. What I've done is really the absolute cliché "hey, I'm gonna cheat now on you" thing.
Gosh...
I am NT but here is my take...
-
Typically any holiday is spent with your partner (if possible, exceptions can be made in advance... "I'm sorry I can't spend fourth of July with you, I need to work on that day" for example)
-
Discuss limits, periodically confirm limits haven't changed. Maybe hanging out at a beach with a different potential partner is a limit. Maybe having dinner alone with a different potential partner is a limit. Maybe kissing is a limit. Maybe sex is a limit. Maybe the gender matters, if your partner is same gender as the other person may increase the limit(if your partner is a girl, she may not be ok with your kissing a girl but if fine with you kissing a guy for example). All these vary by partner.
-
Communicate... Why is she upset? Was it timing? Would what you did be ok next weekend for example? Was it the activity? If you saw a movie with your friend would that be ok?
-
I don't mean to be offensive about this one. Why did you leave your partner to spend time with another person? Did you not like spending time with your girlfriend? Did you prefer to be around your friend? Did you just need a break of the party but it's awkward to return to the party afterwards? Do you just not like that type of party and that's why you left?
All of these will influence your relationship. The biggest is going to be 3.... Communicate communicate communicate. Discuss these questions with your partner and you should have a better idea of what is acceptable and what isnt going forward.
Got it - that is an amazing rule for me to use. I'll keep in mind to reserve and spend holidays with my partner (unless agrees otherwise) and periodically discuss limits. We actually communicate quite a lot, which I think is a strong point of our relationship; while we aren't perfect here, I'm pretty proud of our communication rules.
I think the reasons I left is because the party was a bit stressful to me, I wanted a small break from my gf (already prior in the day I was at hers to fix my phone) and I wanted to get groceries. I'm not sure how to communicate appropriately to my gf that I might need a break from her though.
-
So I accidentally stumbled in here and I'm making some broad and very possibly weong assumptions that most everyone else in this story is allistic. If that isn't true you can probably ignore this, my bad.
That said OP if your GF is allistic, and especially if this is a newer relationship, you may need to tell her that she needs to clarify her expectations explicitly with you in this area. If she is allistic there is no chance she'll have thought she had to ask you "please don't abandon me on my birthday to go on a classic date with someone other than me." To an allistic bystander this whole story reads like you care more about this friend than your girlfriend who you dont seem to really like all that much. (Not saying it's true just that that is gonna be the social impression given off). Also, if you didn't do something romantic still leaving your partners party to go hang out with a friend will still largely be interpreted as prioritizing that friend over your girlfriend. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to do but that's what allistic people who hear this story will assume. So if she was OK with you leaving the party to hang out with this friend nonromantically (which seems unlikely) you may want to include "my GF told me she was fine with me leaving her party" when telling this story. Otherwise I think you focusing in on just the romance part may be missing the point, the romance part just made it worse but wasn't the whole problem.
Also as a side note: if the friend who asked is of a gender you are interested in and knew it was your girlfriends birthday when extending this invite (and is allistic) then your friend was knowingly being an asshole to your girlfriend. Possibly also trying to sabotage your relationship. Just a heads up.
Hmm, got it. Well, actually I left the party and then my friend called me; it wasn't planned for me to go meet her until I already arrived home.
When I talked about this with my gf, she urged me to put in some research in myself - which I hereby do :) I understand that she doesn't have to explain everything to me. But it also really hurts me when she told me that her two closest friends advised to break up with me if something like that happens again. So it definitely is societally frowned upon.
And thank you for the heads-up. The friend in question gave me a neck kiss, which I talked about and told her it wasn't okay. She is now in a relationship, and I really have the feeling she pays more attention to my boundaries now. But I'll keep in mind to stay vigilant. I don't think she knew my partner had her birthday today, but thank you for the warning regardless - I'll keep it in mind.
Firstly, It might help elucidate the issue if you'd detail everyone's gender identity and sexual orientation.
Secondarily, your partner might be fixating incorrectly on your presumptively romantic encounter; it could be the case that she is mostly hurt by you leaving her party only to spend the evening with someone else, but has misdirected that hurt into jealousy. However, the gender and sexual orientation of you and your friend does matter.
I'm non binary (read male though) and pansexual, my girlfriend is female and panromantic, my friend is female and biromantic. All of us involved are in a relationship though, so I presume my friend isn't romantically interested in me (anymore).
Birthdays, Christmas Day, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, Valentine's, most holidays, and Friday's are special days. By default, you spend them with your partner.
Sunset viewing places, boats, parks, museums, night clubs, and cafes are romantic places. By default, you visit them with your partner.
None of these lists are exhaustive.
Perfect, thanks! I'll keep it in mind. That's a good list.
By any chance, do you have other examples where you've unknowingly gone "out of code" like this in a social context ?
Definitely!
You can just see the linked comment., I've explained our backstory here.
Communication! You and your partner need to have better communication between you. Without a good communication, your partner doesn't know your needs. The opposite is also true.
There is a misconception about rest time and autism. It doesn't mean doing nothing or laying on the coach/bed. It's often doing an energizing activity. I can't give any clue here as the activity is personal and change from one to another. I can only speak for myself with trainspotting, walking in the nature, reading research papers…
It's important to sit down and communicate about the needs of both with the partner. It makes things clear and people around us will understand why we are doing it. It's also respecting the needs of both.
N.B: Now, communicating and respecting our needs is good. But, we can't make up needs at one point to excuse ourselves. I see way too many autistics that have suddenly a new need to excuse being an assh*le. This isn't fine.
Thank you for your comment on tbr energizing activity! I actually didn't know that, but now it makes sense why e.g. playing PC games help me relax a lot.
Would you plan it in secret to suprise your partner. That is how I classify a romantic moment.
I think I get what you're saying but it's very nuanced. The same things I've surprised friends with are suddenly romantic when I surprise my partner with them.
I am annoyed it isn't easy :/
You didn't do anything wrong, I don't think. Your partner has every right to feel hurt. She has feelings...she's a human being with human emotions, and they are telling her that she should feel hurt right now.
But it is each individual person's responsibility to dig into why they have the feelings they do and not blame others for those feelings when it wasn't warranted.
- Did she communicate to you that she wanted you to spend the entire evening with her on her birthday, and did you then agree to do that only to bounce early and then end up going to hang out with a friend instead? If so, then I'd probably feel less than important, if it were me, and Iight be questioning how important our relationship is to my partner.
- Did she not communicate such a desire and is now indicating hurt by you spending time with a friend the same night as her birthday party? If so...if you didn't commit to spending the entire evening with her on her birthday...them she doesn't have a right to blame you for her hurt. You have a right to decide how you will spend your tiem and with whom, and if she wanted you to be at the party the whole evening, then she should have asked.
- Or is it really more to do with her feeling jealousy and that she thinks you swimming with a friend is bordering on cheating (assuming you are monogamous together)? If so, then that is something you two will have to discuss together, to hammer out a relationship agreement in which you dig into what you will provide from the relationship, what you need from it, what you want from it, and what the dealbreakers are. If you've never had such a discussion and she is just assuming that you doing that was not kosher, then she would be in the wrong to expect more of you than you've committed to in your relationship.
if you didn’t commit to spending the entire evening with her on her birthday
Bad news. This is sound logic, but in NT world, there are all sorts of implied social contracts. Dating someone defaults to "yes you DID commit to spending the evening with her on her birthday, unless otherwise discussed to opt out".
Not everything needs to be spoken or written down. If I walk into a restaurant but there is no sign that says "please form a line to place your order," I'm not going to barge to the front and begin ordering, because "form a line and wait your turn" is understood to be how society functions.
You are absolutely not obligated to follow the implied social contracts. And you not obligated to know all of the implied social contracts. But you also don't get to take the moral high ground on the situation.
she doesn’t have a right to blame you for her hurt
A healthy relationship doesn't have blame or a scoreboard or anything like that. It REALLY doesn't matter who is to blame. Try to win an argument by saying "Well you dont have the right to blame me." It will end more relationships than it will win arguments. If you value the relationship, you want your partner to not hurt regardless of the source/blame. The hurt happened and all you can do is figure out how to prevent the hurt going forward, which will often be by communicating and setting expectations.
Bad news. This is sound logic, but in NT world, there are all sorts of implied social contracts.
Almost stopped reading here. There is no "NT world". It's just...the world. And it's made up of all sorts of people. I don't give a fuck about implied social contracts in relationships as they are bullshit. You talk together and figure out what your relationship is about. End of.
Not everything needs to be spoken or written down. If I walk into a restaurant but there is no sign that says "please form a line to place your order," I'm not going to barge to the front and begin ordering, because "form a line and wait your turn" is understood to be how society functions.
...this is a gag, right? You're having me on?
What you've written is not unlike a middle school persuasion paper: Written by someone with little understanding of the requisite material while using strained arguments to put forth an air of confidence in their position.
Absolutely stopped reading here.