The French aristocrat who understood evolution 100 years before Darwin – and even worried about climate change
The French aristocrat who understood evolution 100 years before Darwin – and even worried about climate change
Georges-Louis Leclerc proposed species change and extinction back in the 1740s, a new book reveals
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In Histoire Naturelle, a 36-volume book Buffon worked on for 50 years, he also put forward the idea that animals were becoming extinct at a time when most natural historians believed that “God would never allow any species to ever disappear or arise over time”, according to Roberts. “The concept of species change and extinction was very controversial.”
The amount of shit that people have got wrong because of god…
Even without this key insight, Buffon postulated that new species must have come into existence and changed over time, while some species must have gone extinct. “That was a very, very radical idea at the time, and Buffon was censured for it by the Sorbonne: he had to write a statement publicly renouncing everything he had written,” said Roberts. Buffon was later formally accused of heresy for implying that Earth was older than the biblical record.
The number of people that have been wrongly persecuted because of god…
Religion is the most horrible invention in human history. It justifies mistreating others. It's used to control people. It causes people to believe fiction over fact. It's the one thing holding us back more than any other.
Because of God? You mean because of Christianity.
https://www.answeringislamicskeptics.com/evolution-in-islam-overview.html
The amount of shit that people have got wrong because of god…
Lol at atheists who don't believe in gods yet still wants to blame everything on them.
This is an excellent example of how religious belief can cloud the human brain, impairing reason and thoughtfulness.
Well done.
This is an excellent example of how edgelord atheism doesn't automatically ensure reading comprehension.
Well done.
Yawn
Let me clarify this without judging you: the abstract objects of gods and religions are real, they are here and effect our lives but the religion itself and gods are not real and have no tangible effect on us.
If you can't relate to this think about ghosts - we talk about them, people are afraid of them and might even commit awful acts deluded by the fact that ghosts exist. That's real. But we have no evidence that ghosts exist, so ghosts themselves are not real.
Let me clarify this without judging you:
Thanks... I guess.
the abstract objects of gods and religions are real, they are here and effect our lives but the religion itself and gods are not real and have no tangible effect on us.
Religions and gods are real. They're as real as money, borders, national identities and racial classification systems. I think what you are trying to say is that they are social constructs.
So you'd be good with phrases such as "God would never allow any species to ever disappear or arise over time" to be considered factually incorrect, as god(s) is/are a social construct?
Just to pre-empt, yes, money and borders are also social constructs but they also have physical manifestations, national identities are similar but not quite the same and all, including classification systems, have agency/effects through people's shared belief in them.
Shared belief in god can have effects, but those effects wouldn't make statements about a singular manifestation having independent agency to do something a correct statement.
"God would never allow any species to ever disappear or arise over time"
vs
"Peoples belief in God would never allow any species to ever disappear or arise over time"
to be considered factually incorrect, as god(s) is/are a social construct?
Nope. I'd declare said statement propandistic shite unless they can prove they are privy to what God does or does not allow.
money and borders are also social constructs but they also have physical manifestations
What do you think churches, mosques and temples are? "Non-physical"? Howzabout the Inquisition? Or Saudi Arabia's "religious police?" Or the vast riches the Catholic Church has stolen over the centuries? I'd say no - they are pretty darn "physical."
national identities are similar but not quite the same and all, including classification systems, have agency/effects through people’s shared belief in them.
See the above.
“Peoples belief in God would never allow any species to ever disappear or arise over time”
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. I don't see how ascribing magical powers to religious people changes the fundamental idiocy of the quote you used.
There are no gods.
Irrelevant.
Certainly not. Earth is populated with brain washed, indoctrinated fools that will give up their $$ or even their lives for pure nonsense.
Earth is populated with brain washed, indoctrinated fools
And you're not one of those, I take it?
Nope. I’d declare said statement propandistic shite unless they can prove they are privy to what God does or does not allow.
Most communication is propaganda to some degree, you'll need to be more specific in the particular viewpoint you have here if you want a useful response.
Prove that god exists and i'll immediately get on to finding out what they do or do not allow.
Just so we're clear, faith isn't proof, in fact its definition is almost universally "belief, in the absence of proof"
Lots of people believing also doesn't equal more factually correct, it just means more people believe.
What do you think churches, mosques and temples are? “Non-physical”? Howzabout the Inquisition? Or Saudi Arabia’s “religious police?” Or the vast riches the Catholic Church has stolen over the centuries? I’d say no - they are pretty darn “physical.”
Correct, you have accurately described physical objects, not a single one of which i have denied the existence of.
If you could point out which one of those is the physical manifestation of a being that "would or would not allow" something then we can get on to the conversation part.
Just in case there's any confusion, i'm all aboard the " organised religion is mostly bullshit people doing horrific things on a large scale over even longer time frames" train.
Note the "organised", it's important.
Also the "religions are just socially acceptable cults" train.
It might seem like I'm on two trains but in reality it's a venn diagram in the shape of a train and it's basically a complete overlap.
See the above.
The above wasn't addressing any of the points so I'm not sure how it relates to this one either, but feel free to let me know.
I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. I don’t see how ascribing magical powers to religious people changes the fundamental idiocy of the quote you used.
I genuinely think you are misunderstanding what was being said here, intentionally or otherwise.
Just in case it's unintentional, I'll try again, but with more describing.
The vs statement was used as an illustration of the difference between the description of a tangible manifestation of a being vs the description of actions of a groups of people with "belief" in a being.
One of those things is a "being"/manifestation performing an action, the other is a group performing actions due to a shared belief or "construct".
Also the first "quote i used" was from the original post, the second was a comparative example, neither of which i was stating as fact, purely as a demonstrative example.
Prove that god exists
Nope. The onus is not on me to prove that God exists as I'm not the one using God to substantiate claims.
I hope this is not difficult to understand.
not a single one of which i have denied the existence of.
No, you claimed that religion is, as social constructs go, somehow less real than all the other social constructs that are equally observable around us - do you need me to remind you?
Here.
Just to pre-empt, yes, money and borders are also social constructs but they also have physical manifestations, national identities are similar but not quite the same and all, including classification systems, have agency/effects through people’s shared belief in them.
Atheists are always the first to purport themselves as (pardon the pun) God's gift to "rational thinking"... yet their (supposed) "rational thinking" falls apart rather quickly under investigation.
mostly bullshit people doing horrific things on a large scale over even longer time frames"
Not big on history, are you?
description of a tangible manifestation of a being
You really are obsessed with God's existence (or lack thereoff), aren't you? I guess I had a hard time following because it's not something I care about in any way whatsoever. It seems that this differentiates me from atheists, doesn't it?
TL;DR;
Probably a troll, possibly just confused, either way uninteresting
See the end of the post for a reply bingo card.
Nope. The onus is not on me to prove that God exists as I’m not the one using God to substantiate claims. I hope this is not difficult to understand.
The difficult to understand part is where you are referencing things that didn't happen.
Perhaps i'm misunderstanding though, so if you point out where i was using god as justification that should clear it up nicely.
No, you claimed that religion is, as social constructs go, somehow less real than all the other social constructs that are equally observable around us - do you need me to remind you?
Again, point at where this happened, if you keep referencing things without related references it's going to seem like you are making things up.
At least here you provided a quote, though unrelated. it's a step in the right direction.
Just in case you meant to use that quote, nothing in the "Just to pre-empt...." quote mentions relative "real"ness.
Atheists are always the first to purport themselves as (pardon the pun) God’s gift to “rational thinking”… yet their (supposed) “rational thinking” falls apart rather quickly under investigation.
No claim to more rationality than you, no claim to atheism either, citation please.
Not big on history, are you?
Vague and fallacious. especially given i was responding to this passage of yours :
Howzabout the Inquisition? Or Saudi Arabia’s “religious police?” Or the vast riches the Catholic Church has stolen over the centuries? I’d say no - they are pretty darn “physical.
You really are obsessed with God’s existence (or lack thereoff), aren’t you? I guess I had a hard time following because it’s not something I care about in any way whatsoever. It seems that this differentiates me from atheists, doesn’t it?
Again, no assertion of atheism on my part, feel free to quote the part where i did.
The only reference to the existence/non existence of a god is in relation to the original post i responded to , it's not a point i added to the conversation.
But i suspect you know this.
This is my reply bingo card ( if you so choose to make one )
- Bad faith arguments
- References to things that didn't happen, with either no actual reference or one that doesn't relate to the "argument" being made
- Fallacies in place of actual points
- Personal attacks
- Claims of my devout atheism, again with no references or proof
- Complaints that i'm pointing out any of the above, but without substantive refutations
- Equivalent of "I'm not arguing with someone who clearly doesn't understand <Pseudo-point with no coherent supporting argument>"
- lol
- lmao
so if you point out where i was using god as justification that should clear it up nicely.
Are all edgelord liberal atheists this thick or is this just you? I'm going to assume that you understand how quotes work? You know... like the one that you yourself used?
Again, point at where this happened,
Already have. And you have failed to address it - not surprisingly.
This is my reply blah, blah, blah
If you are an example of atheism's (alleged) "rationality" it's perfectly clear why your shit-stained excuse of an argument is so thoroughly rejected everywhere except circle-jerks such as this.
Good bye.
Damn, all but 2.
Nearly had me a bingo, oh well.
So, in summary, you just want to argue with people about things.
They could just be deeply confused about how a conversation generally works?
Pretty sure they just need to argue to feel good about themselves
Wtf do you even think you're saying? That a sincerely held belief that religion is toxic is based on fake internet points? I hated religion long before we got online. Your comment is empty and stupid.
An actual atheist wouldn't care enough about religion to actively spend any of their energy hating it - so what are you really?
an actual atheist
Why do you think being atheist means you're somehow free from the millions of Christians that surround you? Or the millions of x y z beliefs?
What will your next logical fallacy be? I'm not going to tell you what this one is.
Since they've already deployed their Scottish regiment, I'm guessing ad hominem
Idk if that's really a Scottish regiment
Seems a little Scots to me
Guys, I wanted them to struggle!
An actual atheist would realize they're surrounded by braindead ignoramuses who have been persecuting (read: killing) people who dare not to believe their story book magical-ghost-man was actually magical or a ghost, and probably not even real in the first place.
These same idiots are running and actively destroying the world around them. In fact, some of them intentionally do things to destroy the planet purely to spite the people who don't believe in their stories.
So yeah. We think about god. A lot. Just in a wildly different way than theists.
An actual atheist would realize they’re surrounded by braindead ignoramuses
There are a lot of ignoramus things around to believe in... religion being only one of many - and not even close to being one of the worst. It seems to me that (so-called) "atheists" are obsessively concerned about not ticking merely this one particular box - but can be as perfectly open to the rest as any religious person.
These same idiots are running and actively destroying the world around them.
Are you trying to say that religion is (somehow) responsible for our impending environmental catastrophe? Just a hunch on my part... but I don't think you're going to find many climatologists that will agree with you.
We think about god.
Yeah... I've noticed. All these (alleged) "atheists" spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about something they vehemently denies even exists.
That's the part I find so damn strange.
Are you trying to say that religion is (somehow) responsible for our impending environmental catastrophe?
Unclear if there's a causation but there is very much a correlation. I think there is a causation, these people think Humans couldn't cause climate change, or that God is ultimately in charge of it and we should just throw up our hands and expect "Him" to take care of it.
These people vote.
So yeah, in some way, religion is responsible for it.
Unclear if there’s a causation but there is very much a correlation.
Really?
That's it?
Sure... WASP ideology does seem to make WASP people more vulnerable to the propaganda of the free-market cultists that has been justifying the genocidal destruction and exploitation of our world - but blaming capitalist and colonialist "modernity" on religion is a stretch. A very, very long one.
These people vote.
Lol! So you don't fall for the whole "Magic Sky Daddy" stuff but when the politicians and their propagandists tell you live in a (supposed) "democratic" society it's hook, line and sinker time?
Don't tell me you rejected one set of fables only to fall for another one, atheist.
What the fuck do you think I am. A pissed off atheist in a christofascist up-and-comer state. An actual atheist (me) would be mad at this bullshit and I am.
christofascist
I'm taking you have a really, really good argument lined up to prove that Christ was a fascist and proselytized anything that we would today call fascism?
I'd say that an actual Christian would have a far better reason to be an anti-fascist than you do - but perhaps fake Christianity breeds fake atheism as well.
You're full of shit and I won't be party to it.
I didn't invite you to any parties, liberal.
Know your place.
Why not? Give me a reason atheists can't get frustrated about religion holding back society in the past? Are you the one to define what an atheist is? Judging by your comments I'd argue you should be the last to do that.
Give me a reason atheists can’t get frustrated about religion holding back society in the past?
Your proof of this?
How about you answer my question first. Who are you to decide what it means to be an atheist.
And if you really need examples of that you should read up on human history before you continue any aspect of this discussion.
How about you answer my question first
No, no, no - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If you want to blame the west's invention of white supremacism (for instance) on a Levantine carpenter's son that lived 2000 years ago you have your work cut out for you.
Yes let the religious nutjob preach about extraordinary claims
Why is it that every time I bring up white supremacy edgelord atheists start shrinking away like ice from a bonfire?
You are "rational" enough not to buy into "race science," aren't you?
They are not blaming a god, they are blaming peoples reason for doing horrible things. There's lots of them, but claiming it's something god wants has historically been one of the more common ones.
Their phrasing must have confused you, but as seen in all the downvotes you received it's a commonly used way of saying this.
, but as seen in all the downvotes you received it’s
I'm surrounded by wannabe-edgy liberals that will happily sell their souls to all kinds of silly political fantasies as long as it isn't religious ones - somehow, the downvotes fail to impress.
No one cares if downvotes impress you. I'm telling you that you wrongly interpreted a sentence.
No one cares if downvotes impress you
Aaaaand... still not impressing me.
And still not answering any questions put in front of you. Reflecting has always been the best trick in the book of religion.
What questions? It's difficult to tell with all the liberal histrionics floating about, you know.
I can believe I'm going to get eaten by a talking meatball when I go to dinner tonight.
The talking meatball obviously isn't going to eat me, it isn't real.
The impact the talking meatball has on my decision making remains a real observable thing.
Nobody is blaming god here, they're blaming the concept of god/gods, and how that concept has resulted in many people treating others poorly.
Note, that's not a judgement on you (presumably) having beliefs, I believe there's probably something out there myself. The talking meatball is purely illustrative.
and how that concept has resulted in many people treating others poorly.
And why the focus on religion? Where is their (alleged) "rationality" when it comes to other social constructs? The loudest atheists I know off also happen to be white supremacists, and I don't hear atheists talking much about the legitimacy of national entities and their oh-so precious borders - all of which are based on magical thinking equal or worse than anything you find in religious scripture.
That tells me a lot about the (supposed) "rationality" of liberal atheism - it seems they are more interested in the irrelevant fetishizing of an entity's absence rather than the actual way in which religiosity has been used and abused by powerful elites both past and present.
The loudest atheists I know off also happen to be white supremacists
That tells me a lot about the (supposed) "rationality" of liberal atheism
I'm really inclined to believe that you're a troll... Liberal atheists that are white supremacists? I've never met anyone that fits that description. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt a little longer...
If you want a great example of how religion has been quite negative, see the crusades, salem witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, ISIS, 9-11.
None of these events have relationships to the teachings of say, Jesus. However, they are atrocities (in cases like the crusades some of the bloodiest conflicts in history) where someone's belief in god is ultimately what led to the conflict. In many cases the atrocities of a nation state and the religious motivation are hand in hand; the founding fathers specifically tried to separate religion from government because of this problematic history.
In the modern US religion is often used to dismiss scientific findings. Folks will say "oh it doesn't matter if climate change is real, God will find a way for us all to continue living." ... or ... "it doesn't matter if COVID is real, God will find a way to heal me" ... or ... "my kid has cancer but they don't need doctors they need prayers for God to heal them miraculously." Religion was even used by some to justify racism based slavery in the US.
Religion has a long history of being used to incite violence or to dismiss concerns about problems where ... whether God exists or not ... there are concrete actions that people on Earth can take right this instant that we know will help.
I'm not going to say "we'd be better off with nobody believing in anything!" but we certainly would be better off if more people/societies didn't listen to fanatics that have their own agenda that's truly devoid of rational thought and the high morals most scripture seeks to teach.
Liberal atheists that are white supremacists?
I guess you've never heard of Bill Maher? Lucky you.
see the crusades, salem witch trials, the Spanish inquisition
You're going to blame religion for feudalist politics? How convenient... and completely ahistorical.
9-11
Right... let's blame the consequences of US neocolonialism on religion as well. After all... US bombs are "secular" and "democratic" bombs, aren't they, liberal?
In many cases the atrocities of a nation state
So why do all these "rational" atheists not apply their "rationality" to the nation state, but only to religion?
In the modern US religion is often used to dismiss scientific findings.
And throughout history, religious institutions preserved them - see Irish clergy and Islamic scholars preserving the writings of ancient Greece, for example.
there are concrete actions that people on Earth can take right this instant that we know will help.
You mean... like applying your "rationality" to the problem of the nation state, perhaps?
I disagree with their sentiment, but dear god you have terrible interpretation of their point.