bOtH SiDeS!!1!
bOtH SiDeS!!1!
634 comments
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I love watching this strawman over and over.
Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.
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As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn't have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
If it's not going to be Biden, then it will be someone else. Either a Republican or a Democrat.
Even someone who earlier looked promising, eg Fetterman is a staunch Israel supporter.
Because the problem is systematic. You can't just uproot the US-Israel nexus that's deeply entrenched in the US politics.
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the Oval Office doesn't have start/stop genocide button
True, but it DOES have the option to stop supplying bombs that they know for a fact are being used to commit that genocide.
Your "either they can push a magic button or they're doing all they can" dichotomy isn't clever. It shows that you're being either disingenuous, willfully ignorant or just extremely obtuse.
Because the problem is systematic
Yes, Israel is systematically wiping out the population of Gaza and the Biden White House is using the levers of the system to help them do it. That's not an argument for not telling them to stop.
You can't just uproot the US-Israel nexus that's deeply entrenched in the US politics
You can, in fact. It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it'll work with THIS apartheid regime too.
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It has a stop paying for genocide button.
It has a stop vetoing UN resolutions button.
It has an impose sanctions button and a freeze assets button.
It has a pull their warships out button.
It has dozens of make life really uncomfortable for Israel if it doesn't fucking stop committing genocide buttons.
But at the very least it could stop actively helping them commit genocide.
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As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
They indeed have the stop button but it's not the one they are pressing.
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What is the strawman in this meme? When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing. This is not a strawman.
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When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing
A "flaw"? Really? Supporting genocide is more than a "flaw".
But the problem arises when the sort of centrist who would downplay genocide by calling it a "flaw" decides that anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide must be a republican both-sidesing. Or is a Russian. Or chinese, or a bot or a tankie or a trumpist or a nazi or a child.
Which are all things I have been called because I dared to say that Biden should not be supporting genocide.
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This meme is targeting leftists, not republicans.
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Which strawman? I’m relying on:
strawman: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
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I don’t think op knows what a strawman argument is.
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If he doesn’t change his position by Election Day, will that prevent you from voting for him?
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Anybody who doesn't vote for Biden because of Israel deserves Trump.
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Problem is there will be a MAJORITY of us who voted for Biden.
What these assholes don't understand is we are fighting over margins.
I get one vote in the presidential election and when you look at my state, it doesn't fucking matter.
It's down ballot that matters and people tend to vote down ballot of the president elect they support.
So anyone you discourage from voting Biden in a swing state is more like "-200" votes. Where I could say I'm going to piss on my ballot and set it on fire and it does not matter. After it drys, probably. Or my piss will be alcohol because how of wasted I will be.
All this to say, what ever the fuck your problem with Biden is, it doesn't matter. We need to win the house and senate too and it's a uphill battle all. the. fucking. way.
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Just going to preface this by saying yes please vote for Biden. If nothing else he is not openly fascist and he will not himself actively work to forward queer genocide and the removal of women's rights. Please vote for him. If you're not going to take any measures to change this system and have resigned yourself to existing within it, do one good thing for women and minorities.
If you think it's fine for a totalitarian fascist state to become established and to mass murder queer people, don't even fucking bother responding to me. If you're saying "don't vote and also don't revolutionize. Just let trans people and women fucking die" then fuck off. You're not even worth engaging with. If fascism takes over and my friends, my family, my loved ones and my community are mass murdered I'll remember how you watched it happen and did literally nothing. Our blood will be on your hands.
I'm not engaging further in this thread.
It's amazing how passive and tolerant the working class has become of the state. If half the energy that was devoted to arguing about why the system sucks but can't be changed was instead put into organizing and committing to revolutionary action... Actual real-world change might have already happened.
Like, what's the line for people? They took away women's bodily autonomy. What about if they took away women's right to work? What if they did away with the 40-hour work week? What if they made it so only land owning whites could vote again? Like, where is the line that people will respond by actually trying to change the system?
"The system is broken, but I'm not here to talk about why we should materially do anything to change that" like what kind of argument is that? Are you just going to watch as fascism literally takes over and then try and revolutionize? If Trump wins, are you then going to try and change the system? After the guy who's definitely a-ok using the military on civilians takes over?
Is this just what it's going to be forever? Forever arguing for the lesser of two evils, the person who will still cause human suffering but not as much as the other guy? Why are so many people seemingly resigned to this status quo? "It sucks but here we are," like what?? Even when revolutionary thought is put forward, people say that it would never work, as though no revolution in history has ever worked or achieved any of its aims. Which is just wrong. Neo liberal propaganda has got yall so bad that you genuinely believe that Western capitalist democracy is the only possible way for society to exist and that any and all attempts to change it are impossible.
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Biden literally signed into law a resolution that took away the ability of railworkers to strike. This is one of the most anti-union and anti-worker moves from the legislative and executive branches I have ever seen in my entire life.
My choice is between that disgusting sack of shit, and an even worse more putrified fascist disgusting sack of shit scumbag pondscum asshole.
I will not be voting for either, and instead will be selecting the candidate available to me on the ticket most closely matching my priorities and convictions. Either way, the electoral college will look at my vote and immediately trash can it to put the true vote to one of these bought and paid for pricks. Happy fucking democracy, what a goddamn joke.
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I don't like Biden either, he's done things that offend me too. But it doesn't matter. Assuming Biden or Trump will win the general, then the only rational move is to pick one of them. Your vote can only make the difference between 1st and 2nd. You can't make the 3rd place candidate jump to first, and you certainly can't cause the winner to be nobody.
If you wanna vote for a candidate who matches your priorities and convictions, the time for that is the primary stage. The general is too late for that. In fact, if Trump wins that'll make it even harder for a more liberal candidate to win the next primary, because (as happened after 2016) a Trump victory will scare democratic voters into thinking they need to move to the center to stop the far-right.
I know, American democracy is a big disgusting knot that makes you do things that feel dirty. But just pretend it's a game, because that's what it is. If you wanna win in the end, that means on each turn you move towards the least bad outcome.
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The system will not change on the terms of democracy by voting. That's clear as it can be.
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It was pretty atrocious how rail workers were prevented from striking, but they did get the sick days they were fighting for a few months later thanks in part to pressure from Biden: https://ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
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He also turned around and got almost everything those rail workers were about to go on strike for in follow-up negotiations
But sure, sacrifice minority lives because an establishment politician was more worried about supply chain snarl than about you getting to cum to all that juicy strike footage that wasn't gonna come out anyways
Don't bother coming to pride this year, we all know you like our aesthetic more than you value our lives.
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Maybe if you vote for Biden he'll be unable to continue in office for whatever reason (will leave to your imagination) and then Kamala Harris takes over. She is markedly more left wing than he is, so there is a possibility you'll get an outcome you prefer.
Edit: should clarify that I also don't have a horse in this race since I'm not from the states
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Can't wait to see the electoral college throw out my vote for the third election in a row
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I think people just don't give a shit. I certainly don't, I want to work as little as possible and enjoy my life as much as I can before the world collapses. Hell half the time I can't decide if living is still worth it yet I slog on hoping for another day where I get to enjoy something entertaining on twitch or a new video game to play.
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I think people just don’t give a shit. I certainly don’t, I want to work as little as possible and enjoy my life as much as I can before the world collapses. Hell half the time I can’t decide if living is still worth it yet I slog on hoping for another day where I get to enjoy something entertaining on twitch or a new video game to play.
You are burnt out and ground down, that is different than not giving a shit. Nobody can judge you for being burnt out, but don't let the fact that you don't have the capacity to care right now fool you into believing it is anything other than an indicator that you are burnt out and ground down.
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I agree But at the same time where are we starting Like I sure as hell don't have the guts to start a revolution I'll join one ig But getting it started is the hardest part
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Its called "organizing" for a reason and there is no shame feeling like you are powerless to do this alone.
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Are you really worried Democrats will start voting for Trump now or something? I'm so confused why these memes even get upvoted. It is like posting memes saying that the earth is round. Do we really need daily reminders that the world is round? If someone thinks it is flat... is a meme going to change their opinion?
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Don't vote for any criminal with blood on his hands. Don't vote for any open or crypto fascist. The best thing you can do for men, women, and minorities all over the world is to not support any corrupted politicians.
There's a genocide happening right now with the support of USA government where thousands of kids already die and keep getting murdered as we speak.
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We allow and are complicit in these murders for every day we stand by and let our leaders do the murdering. If another attack happens on US citizens a la 9/11 then I will not be shocked or surprised, we have it coming. It's literally a sake of national security that we remove our current leadership from power, otherwise we're literally inviting a retaliation with blindfolds on.
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And if you don't vote that genocide will come to the USA too
Always our bodies are the favorite props of the white left, bodies can be martyrs for their cause, and won't act as agents for ours.
Benda N3aesh. We want to live.
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The people who vote Trump consider some of those slabs to be pros, not cons.
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That's absolutely true, but that's not the point of this meme.
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He lets them be who they want to be, and a lot of them think and act like him.
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I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump. I think most progressives, for instance, would agree that Biden is better than Trump, it's just that that's such a low bar. I mean, are liberals really surprised that people aren't all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he's not as bad as the only alternative? Now, I get that liberals don't see it that way, I understand that liberals, apparently, are really very happy with Joe Biden, but for the rest of us he is only the least bad option.
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In some parts of Lemmy, they are absolutely making that argument.
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I would imagine those people are Marxists, or other anti-capitalists. If you're somebody whose primary litmus test is whether a candidate is pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist, you might not see much of a difference between Biden and Trump because they are both staunchly pro-capitalist. But I think those people are overrepresented on lemmy and only make up a very small percentage of the actual US voter base.
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Are they literally saying they are the same person? That they share the same atoms?
Or is the point that they are the same in the most important ways?
Maybe your disagreement is over what qualities/policies are most important, but accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement?
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It's very weird to see people say "Biden is awful. I won't support him anymore" and get "Why didn't you say that about Donald Trump?!!!" thrown back at them.
At some point, insisting that Donald Trump will ALSO do a genocide, so you need to donate all your money to the Biden campaign and block walk for him... Fucking bananas.
Even Obama didn't get this kind of Ride or Die support from Democrats.
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Perhaps it’s just a case of vote for biden now so trump can be shut out for the next 4 yrs and hope that his senility eats him before the next course
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are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative?
When your opponent is Trump, it's kind of hard for that to not be the main selling point; he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
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I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump.
You wrote this on Lemmy. I don't see how you missed how popular this attitude is.
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The actual argument is that we can do a lot better, but disingenuous political hacks shriek "THAT MEANS YOU THINK BOTH ARE THE EXACT SAME!!!1" and so we're stuck with voting "not the other guy" for the rest of our lives as the wealth gap keeps widening, everything gets less affordable, the climate is still worsening, and nothing improves in any meaningful capacity.
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We COULD do a lot better if it wasn't for all those idiots sitting under the scales. There's a shit load of people that actively want everything on the right side of that scale. There's groups of people actively supporting Israeli because they believe it'll bring about the apocalypse and let Jesus return.
Hagee has MILLIONS of followers. And not on twitter, in real life. People who live their lives in service to his vision. People who donate money and time to the cause.
And those are just the zealots. There's millions more that do whatever these people say "just to be on the safe side" in case they're right.
In total they compromise about 15-20% of the population, which is roughly the entire population of France or the UK. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/10/28/22750589/what-the-latest-data-tells-us-about-christian-nationalism-pew-research-center-andrew-whitehead/
These people cannot be reasoned with, they are blood bound members of a death cult and the only recourse we have is to out vote them. It fucking sucks.
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We could do a lot better right now, but biden has demonstrated time and again that he won't take action even when he can. The genocide in Gaza is the perfect example. He'll say he's sad and frustrated but then supplies israel even more to continue their genocide. It's hard to believe that if we just vote in democrats hard enough that they will take action when they refuse to take action on things they have the power to right now.
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I'm just blocking the idiots that post these. So tired already of their bullshit.
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That's not what is being addressed here and I think you know that.
There are LOTS of people who equate the two sides and say they are no different. This is a toxic lie and you shouldn't defend it
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Wow, it’s almost like their’s a third candidate running on similar policy changes… Cost of living, environment and improving people’s lives in a meaningful capacity.
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I don't know about this candidate in general, but there's no chance anyone outside of the democrat-republican approval filter will get anywhere near the presidency. It's like the myth of "anyone can be rich if they put their mind to it and work hard enough". In theory enough votes could get any candidate the presidency, but in practice it's impossible (with even lower odds than becoming individually rich).
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Gawd. Do we have to get one of these braindead posts every damn day? You think it's convincing anyone?
Biden's concerns aren't people choosing Trump. Those voters are fixed and committed. Biden has to worry about Democratic voters getting so frustrated with the system that they check out. These posts are practically (if not actually) designed to do exactly that.
Democrats listen up! Bitching at voters is not an effective campaign strategy! Learn something from Hillary or suffer the same fate!
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That's the real takeaway. I've said it from the beginning of these posts, making an enemy of disaffected leftists does not make them want to vote for you. Additionally, the drop in support for Democrats is not the fault of leftists, but of Democrats.
Push the Democrats to do better, and leftists will come back. If more leftists see liberals heavily criticizing the DNC and pushing for better, it's more likely that leftists will vote DNC.
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Man I can just hear how white you are
"I am entitled to demand to speak to the party's manager and you're the one who's making me act like this you stupid ungrateful minority person who's pointing out that you'll be the one who actually gets "punished" if I refuse to engage meaningfully!"
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Damn that's some racist bullshit. And you have the nerve to talk about not engaging meaningfully.
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It's in hopes that those idiots realize that their failure to vote in this election of all elections makes them complicit. Just because you don't participate in something that you could have helped stop doesn't make you innocent.
They're going to pay the price just as much as everyone else if Trump is reelected and if they think at all that any of the things they're mad at Biden for won't be done 10 fold by Trump, they're dumber than I already know they are.
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If only those other idiots realized that their constant affirmations of fealty during an active protest undercut the effectiveness of the protest, and all but guarantees that Democrats never have to adjust their policies.
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There has been no election in the last 50+ years where progressives didn't show up en masse for the Democratic candidate. It never happened. As a reward we get this crap every single election cycle.
The voters who don't vote for the Democrats are voters who have checked out of the process and aren't reading this crap from establishment cucks. You aren't going to reach them with a million stupid political memes.
Aside from a few loudmouths, progressive loyalty to the Democrats has never been at issue. By continuously harping on it like it actually is an issue, you are going to make it one. You are telling progressives that their votes are needed but their input is not. Eventually there actually will be a mass betrayal of the Democrats, and the Democrats will have earned it.
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They aren't going to realize it, but they will blame dems for not stopping Trumps hard right policies and authoritarianism of trump for power again. Even on Israel, you have 1000 times better chance of getting a good result from Biden in the future than you would from Trump, who would gladly bomb Gaza out of existence if he can figure out how to monetize a relationship with Israel.
All of that said, Biden and US should end unconditional military aid to Israel. But not voting for Biden over it will only fuck things up even more.
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It's insane that anyone is doing the work of defending either. We deserve significantly better.
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This is the thing I can't believe 100% of the left isn't screaming from the rooftops. Yes, we'll all vote for Biden, but we're going to have to live with the fact that we knowingly voted for a genocide supporter for the rest of our lives. Sure, we voted for the lesser genocide supporter, but that really shouldn't matter to our own sense of disgust at ourselves.
Innocent people are dying, and my vote for the guy supplying the weapons that kill them will be the most shameful moment of my life. At least, I hope it will - I don't have much faith at this point that I won't be forced to do something even worse in 4 years. And 4 years after that. And 4 years after that...
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People need to stop thinking that the left "has a party." The right has two parties and the left is trying desperately to stop one from going full authoritarian.
I will tell you what happens when the GOP is served a crushing blow. The people without any real beliefs, like the Trump humpers that voted Obama, come back and devour the DNC from the inside. The game is rigged and youre not a part of the game rigging club. Get use to eating shit and start voting like your friends and families lives depend on it.
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"the democrats don't have a cult" lie is falling apart.
"I don't mind if we're funding a genocide, but god forbid I face an inconvenience at home."
The fear of scraping at the bottom of the barrel to keep that american exceptionalism on top rather than revolting against the system is somehow the better option.
"It's not like a cycle of doom or anything as long as I don't get inconvenienced."
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Here's a fun game: ask a Democrat for one thing that Biden could do that would cause them to not vote for him.
What's their deal-breaker? Where's the line?
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It’s possible that YOU deserve better. But WE… dog we vote for this, we chose this.
There is no nefarious conspiracy, our democracy has problems but, by and large, we get what we chose.
Unfortunately, YOU, and I share this country with 350M people and the majority of them fucking love this shit.
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we chose this.
Did "we"? If you had to describe someone who voted for Biden in the primaries what would be some of your guesses? You think a bunch of millenials got together and were like "Yeah! Old white man who's blocked progressive and leftist policies for his entire political career! That's our guy!"
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Imagine defending a mafioso or a murderer
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We do. Unfortunately all we can vote for this year is whether we'll have a 2028 election or if we'll be a theocratic monarchy by then.
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Then maybe our system is fundamentally broken and we need to change it? If we are always one election away from the destruction of democracy and society there is something fucked up. I have heard the same rhetoric about every election in the last 30 years.
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Yeah, I live in a state where the GOP will win regardless. So I will absolutely not waste my vote on either of these candidates.
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The lesser of two evils is still evil. This is just a plain statement of fact. Like sure, I'd rather eat a turd sandwich than be immersed and drowned in shit, but that doesn't make the turd in the sandwich any less of a piece of shit.
Voters have the right to call a turd a piece of shit, even if that's their least bad option. And if certain politicians don't like being called out for doing shitty things, they can also you know, stop doing shitty things.
Conversely, politicians who are not for the "drown people in shit" policy, don't get a free pass for increasing the amount of turds in sandwiches.
PS . I'm not an American and don't vote in your country's elections.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
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PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
don't worry it's fine there's plenty of turds downvoting you
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Brandon 2024, warts and all. Fuck the republican traitor filth.
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A lot of demonstration here of people who think politics and democracy is strictly voting, and approximately about once every four years.
The self-reports in these threads are wild.
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I'm sure the comments will be full of calm and logical discussions.
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I'm sure it will also include civil responses to what opposing people are actually saying.
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Hexbear users incoming.
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They're already here, look at the later comments and vote tallies.
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First I did creating an account was block that far right fascist instance
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They are all on their .world alts
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I was gonna call out the "grammar" one, since a person's grammar really isn't all that big a deal... Then I remembered reading one of his tweets a few days ago. It was somewhere around 200 words, all caps, and zero punctuation.
I can't. I can't do four more years of this guy's fucking tweets. Guys. Please.
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Someone pointed out that him Ying his Hs (yuuuuuuge) is apparently a current linguistic trend in American English, and I about died of a heart attack
I normally am a hard descriptivist but oh sweet God no not more people talking like him!
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He isn't on Twitter anymore.
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True. I think it was truth social
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this is a bad faith reading of a basic ass fucking tenant of socialist theory. democrats, party of the educated, are feigning ignorance to try and silence dissent.
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Second someone starts arguing to theory, I know they don't understand a damn lick of it beyond surface level word parroting
The socialist position is that one candidate is measurably worse for literally every demographic to which a socialist must be an ally to, and that is the end of the debate.
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I mean materially supporting genocide is pretty fucking bad
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It's almost like this two party system was always a bad idea advised against from the start by George Washington at the inception of this removed.
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OMG 10000 times this. I have spent so many nights screaming into the dark over this point
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Yo, you already spammed this when you made the Hilary post. Exact wording too. It doesn’t really apply. Can you please at least respond to the topic.your response to be at least relevant to the post. They are comparing both sides as if they are both as bad and all you’re spamming is something only relevant to something that happened two days ago about how terrible it would be if they were exactly the same on benefits. This only enables those who are already too lazy standing on the sidelines by fluffing over important, individual points.
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Internet discourse is when ctrl+c ctrl+v
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If you start talking about getting rid of Red vs Blue, and get more into eating the rich, you find a whole lot more unity real fast. I know many conservatives that hop right on that bandwagon, enthusiastically. Trump v Biden? That's pointless. Wasting billionaires and their families? Now that gets people excited and unified.
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As I've said many times before, Approval Voting and Proportional Representation are the way to go in order to break the duopoly. Volunteer with Election Science to get this shit started.
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I'm curious what you've done to further voting changes in your state. Would you care to comment?
I'm for ranked-choice voting. But I'm also lazy and rather selfish and haven't donated any time (money is easier) to anything to make the world better. But I'm pretty ok with putting that out there.
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ITT: “no one is making
<argument x>
, and everyone is making<argument y>
; OP <agrees/disagrees> with me and therefore that makes OP<position z>
”nearly everyone here needs to pause, look around, and recognize that there is tremendous diversity to people and their worldviews. if you engage with every issue as a monolith, you become the monolith. but if you engage with people as what they are, individuals, you might actually get something done.
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The card says moops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMabpBvtXr4
Whether or not complicit, these people are helping the alt-right make their case and win elections.
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All it would take is for Biden to change his actions when it comes to Israel and Trump would lose.
Instead millions are supposed to swallow their principles and vote for somebody who is openly and activelly supporting a new Holocaust.
Most Americans now think Israel's actions are wrong and yet there is Biden sending 2000lb (that the US itself doesn't use because of their extreme danger for civilians) to Israel.
Biden is doing the kind of thing one would expect from Putin.
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While half of Americans think Israel is going too far, only 20% think that America is going too far in their ME strategy
https://news.gallup.com/poll/548084/americans-divided-involvement-middle-east.aspx
80% either think the current policy is either "the right amount" or "not enough"
What Biden is doing is "80% of my voters agree I should continue supporting Israel so I'll keep supporting Israel but begin floating conditioning it or cutting it off to try and placate the other 20% and also to lay the groundwork for maybe turning this into a party line issue so I don't lose the "right amount " voters who can be convinced to still vote for me if they see the "not enough" voters as too dangerous on other issues to vote with.
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“tHiS cOmMeNt SuPpOrTs GeNoCiDe!”
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This meme is a consequence of the duopoly system.. it's a political cartel with no real choice
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No one who is critical of Biden (from the left) is saying he is as bad as trump, this is disingenuous
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What the fuck? Yes they are, in this thread and thousands of others, every day.
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Hey it's me your average voter. Over the last four years I've recognized and processed 239 salient points that should inform my choice of president. However. I can only hold two or three ideas in my mind at once and I have no concept of the past or future. Jingle some "border invasion" or "Israel committing genocide" keys in front of me and I'll forget everything else.
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You wanna know Trump's real power? Look at the size of all of those issues on his side. They are all the same fucking size. "Jan 6th" is the same size as "grammer" but they get lumped together. Next week a new piece of bullshit gets thrown on and further distorts the magnitude of an issue like insurrection.
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I try not to do this but it's "grammar."
Which is not a grammatical error but a spelling error. Still makes me laugh.
You have a good point.
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Dang it. I'm not as good at it as Trump. I should have included more so you wouldn't notice.
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We have a corporate media that profits off their "both sides" narratives. Then we go around and mocked people for believing the lies those at the top feed us which is bullshit.
We live in a society of specializations where we rely on each other. If oncology doctors privately laughed at their patients for buying snake oil they sold, maybe we should blame oncology and not the patients who frankly have no way to treat cancer themselves.
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"He's old" is not a valid criticism. "Israel", on the other hand, is a big fucking problem. And if genocide isn't a deal-breaker for Democrats, I have to wonder what is.
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I see you missed the bottom two on the Trump side... Putting that solely on Democrats reveals your bias.
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Probably the ongoing femicide that the white left invited onto our country by stanning for Stein to "teach the establishment a lesson"
The establishment can just go to a different state to get the healthcare they need, the working class women who are dying on the other hand, literally don't get to live to point out what should be prioritized as deal breakers right now.
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I voted for Stein because she was the best candidate. I didn't think I was teaching anybody a lesson.
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Zerked it zilly style to this post, and I really felt it in my political self-satisfaction.
No but seriously where do I find actual good and nuanced political discussion that's either about theory or about like, capital hill politics, or the machinations and nuances of the US political system? The specifics of legislature, maybe, more specific pros and cons to each candidacy, possible alternatives, shit like that? Cause it's obviously not here, and not on lemmy generally. The only conversations I am doomed to find here are the same leftist-liberal circlejerk sparring, ad nauseam, and it's really draining me. Mostly because of how obviously vapid, self-serving, and totally useless it is. Does there exist a holy land of good political discourse, or is this just kinda, where we are now?
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I don't think so, in part because there is a wildly different set of moralities that are being discussed. One side are moral absolutists who are arguing that any participation in a corrupt political system is itself immoral. The other side are moral relativists trying to engage in harm reduction by choosing what they see as the less harmful side.
These discussions often rapidly devolve to these basic views on morality, with neither side really open to changing their viewpoint because such a viewpoint is fundamental to who they are as a person.
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I don't really see either of those positions as meaningful differences, though, as long as the morals are actually the same. Even if they aren't, there should still be like, some idea of dual power floating around in people's heads, no? Like the idea that biden will be easier to strongarm with left wing grassroots revolutionary power, or unions, than trump, who will probably not be so easy to bend. I have never seen any reasonable explanation for why this stupid meta-level electoral politics discussion really has to take place every 4 years, or, even, that it's convincing at all to either side of people. Which, is probably because it never tends to get into specifics, as far as I've seen, about electoral strategy or local outreach and activism. It's just like, oh you should vote, no I don't wanna, and then both sides scream, in unison, at one another "oh my god you are literally hitler". It's just the stupidest easy bait I've seen every election cycle, and I get exhausted of it every time.
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You won't find that anywhere. Americans are vapid, self-serving, and totally useless. If you don't believe me turn on any cable news network. No, instead we are forced to let emotionally charged reactionaries lead every discussion and pray they don't drive us off a cliff, again.
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There's no such thing as "good" political discourse, there is only individual learning and good discussion among like-minded people. Any time you try to talk with someone ideologically opposed, like leftists and liberals, there is rarely understanding unless foundational common ground is met.
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We're surrounded by fucking tankies and the liberals they hate, you find a lot of nuance in discussions, it just gets downvoted based in which angry mob is currently viewing the thread.
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I’m always surprised there are people out there who just don’t seem to follow the news of who they think ‘isn’t all that bad’ over ‘yes he’s that bad’ kinda shit that is easy to find. The guy is in the news constantly for a reason.
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The guy is in the news constantly for a reason.
They've convinced themselves that it's because he's so great
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It's also news exhaustion. We shouldn't be having to constantly talk and look into it. But it sells. So they keep selling it.
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Both sides are genocide enablers and should be trialed at The Hague, yes.
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Bides and Trump are 4 years apart.
Im just gonna let this sit here.
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I don’t understand why people bother with this crap on here. It’s exhausting and pointless. Anyone that is going to vote and isn’t casting a ballot for Biden is either a MAGA idiot or has the mental acuity of an inbred toddler. They both share a lack of mental depth that is required to process anything of substance.
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I think you underestimate younger voters who understandably want to take a principled stand against voting for the lesser of two evils, and haven't yet had the experience of realizing too late that this principled stand accomplished nothing but empowering the greater of two evils.
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This older voter is calling bullshit. If there has ever been a bill or law that targets specific groups of people to subjugate, it has Biden's fingerprints in it. In most cases he wrote and sponcered the bill. Patriot Act, Crime Bill, Bankruptcy bill prohibiting student debt, DOMA, DADT, welfare reform, etc. The list is endless. He has 50 years of Congressional to show he does not represent us in government.
Condoning genocide is not the lesser evil
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You would think that, but then there are still the exact same "corrupt DNC" trolls on here as 8 years ago. These are very obviously trolls, but they are keeping this narrative around because it works and gets engagement. I'm curious how long it is supposed to take before the political maturity kicks in.
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it could be directed at people who think voting for either party is pointless
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I'm in Texas this week, travelling (by electric car) between Houston, Austin, Dallas, and back to Houston.
I just arrived in Austin.
My hope for humanity is severed. Like...Houston wasn't bad per se, but it's way, way different from New England cities. There's just a general air of ignorance. There's a small number of people that I've run into that I'm thinking "this person is logical and sound".
The drivers are idiots. The roads are worse. Like, this massive sprawl of highways that are well maintained but still nowhere near big enough to handle the massive car dependency they have.
Seriously, why the fuck did I have to choose between two different 71-Wests. And all the left exits. The highways are beautiful, as objects of engineering accomplishment, and very well maintained (compared to northern cities). But they are hideous as a sign of an oil-tied culture.
Hell even when I finally found a charging station off the highway (which was 40 miles from where I asked for the nearest charging station on my route), I noticed that the charger was way out far away from the buildings. And no trash can nearby. Back home, the EV charging spots are numerous and usually the best parking spot around.
In between Dallas and Austin I saw tons of pickup trucks. Nearly every one had a flawless paint job and an empty bed. I saw two pickups that had a trailer attached...one had six-foor lengths of conduit that could have easily been carried on the roof of a car or even hanging out the trunk. The other was a Rivian.
The churches are massive and the billboards are pandering. I saw a new planned community going up with it's own elementary school and shopping center and my first thought is "that's a commune".
It just seems as if being born a sucker is a prerequisite for living here.
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These kinds of comments are really insidious in trying to sell all the people of the states of the South as bad. That you should not look at the details, the poor who live in Texas because they have no choice, those who are about the people around them enough to try to make it work and stay. The majority of people in Texas did not support trump.
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The annual pretending Democrats don't uphold systemic issues because Trump is clearly worse. 🙄
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Oh no, Democrats have their issues, sure. Far as I can tell though, they every now and then do good, can be convinced towards reasonable action, and aren't trying to, at least openly, control everything from sex to a child's school lunch.
Is it perfect? Far from it. Though at least with them we have a chance to promote some positive change. It feels like a chance. One where we have a hand tied behind our collective backs, though a chance all the same.
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OP's username is relevant
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They are both corrupted criminals that shouldn't be in charge of anything, you are not supposed to support neither
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I agree that voting for Biden this election is important for everyone, but these are just two recent examples of a long and problematic career. He has his own brand of white supremacist comments and legislation under his belt, he spent his entire career being cheerleader and enabler of making the people you want to vote for him poorer so some rich dudes can get richer. You have to actually acknowledge and listen to people if you want to change their minds, straw men are just making them less likely to vote for Biden. It makes this position look ill informed and/or disingenuous.
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If you want the US to act in line with the Paris agreement, if you want a humane healthcare system, if you want effective action against police violence, if you want the US to stop supporting a possible genocide, it doesn’t matter what you vote next election.
This is just a fact, you can do with this fact whatever you want, vote for the least bad option or stay home, but that doesn’t change this truth.
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These types of posts always strike me as desperate. I know no one and I mean no one that will switch from voting for Biden to voting for Trump just because he's old and enables Israel's genocide. And if they are willing to switch, you're probably talking about mid-stage dementia boomers that are easily manipulated either way. Why do you have to get so offended that people talk shit about Biden? People didn't vote for him cause they liked him. Your memes aren't going to make people like Biden more, but they'll definitely remind us that there are quite a few pathetic Democrats out there.
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But the concern is turnout, not switching sides.
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Maybe Biden and the DNC should do something about that?
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Jill Stein will resolve problems created by two-party mess.
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Ha! I love this satire!
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By being a Russian plant?
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He also moved the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem which made the Israelis happy as it seemed to give America's blessings to the land Israel occupied in the 1967 war
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Christ. ITT getting JAQed off.
Biden’s a piece of shit baby bomber thanks to Israel, but at least he’s not a rapist like trump, right?
Transparent AF.
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Brace yourselves, hexbears wearing .world accounts are coming
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Hate to break it to you, but not all leftist are on hexbear.
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Not all leftists are stupid enough to believe that not voting for Biden is the better choice.
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Saying somebody is from "hexbear" or a "tankie" is the new "communist" of American Liberals, deployed just like "communist" was in the old days when the chief of whatever political tribe they support does something which is pretty much Fascism and they can't actually argue or justify it away.
I supposed that because of their position in politics is so much to the right and so far from the center, than American "moderates"/liberals invariably just see one big blob to their left mixing everything up to and including all the variants of Communism.
That said, this case is really special as even Center-Right people are against supporting the Nueu Holocaust being committed by Israel: one needs to be so far to the right to the point of being Nazi-adjacent to support this or those that support it.
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I like how this crappy meme weights "Israel" the same as "He's Old" as if genocide is comparable to the inability of Biden to hold a coherent conversation.
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Hahaha you are literally doing what the post is calling people out for.
You can criticize Biden. But the point of your post wasn't to do that, was it? It was to cause dissent, not create solutions.
So stop it. Get some help. He's a better choice than Trump, and that's the only thing that actually fucking matters.
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I didn't even complain about both sides, I just said why is the weight so ridiculously unbalanced in the picture.
Trump has the same two blocks as if age is equal in weight to genocide.
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It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.
Fuck it. Y'all are gonna kill me anyhow.
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on its* skin
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Bernie or bust out and about again. I remember Rammy quoting his dad in his last special, "they're religious like us."
We're fucked.
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Bernie or bust out and about again.
Biden Approval in November 2023 -> Biden Approval in April 2024
Bernie did this.
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It's the same shit. Sow division any way possible. If the GOP aren't doing it themselves they are laughing to themselves every time it happens.
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Go be wrong at someone else.
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Yep it's the same old bullshit from out-of-touch sub-22-year-old revolutionaries who just so happen to intersect the Venn diagram with right-wing wedge-driving astroturfers, conveniently. They tend to stay quiet for 3-4 years, do nothing, then complain loudly about how imperfect the inevitable candidate is, then threaten to do something utterly meaningless and backfiring to their own end-goals like not voting or voting 3rd-party.
Tack on another on that list: Ukraine. Trump pledged zero aid to Ukraine; Republicans are blocking it all. Not only will more blood be spilled in Palestine under Republican leadership, but quantifiable more blood will also be spilled in Ukraine. Talk about a Pyrrhic victory.
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It isn't that they're silent for 3-4 years, it's that libs suddenly need their support and start hounding them about their motivations.
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Of course they'll hound you about your motivations; after all:
- If you claim to care about Palestinians (along with the things on the right side of the scale, and Ukrainians)
- Yet threaten to let the guy who will do bad things to these things on a scale orders-of-magnitude worse win...
... Then you just aren't thinking logically or with any foresight whatsoever. In fact it's entirely self-defeating.
In the meantime go ahead and ask a Palestinian and Ukrainian who they'd prefer to have in the White House. I'll wait.
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Sounds like Biden better quit alienating his base, then.
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You guys lost any relationship with reality, you got groomed by malicious guys.
Imagine being a student and there are 2 teachers you could vote for to be your class teacher. Both hit you, humiliate you and spit in your face every day, but one of them is also a pedophile. "OMG BotH SidES".
you don't have the ability anymore to imagine what a teacher should be like: kind, caring, helpful.
But hey, it's your country, just make the lesser evil your hero..
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But hey, it's your country, just make the lesser evil your hero..
That's what's known as a strawman. Voting for Biden doesn't mean making them a hero or even agreeing with them.
It merely shows that you realise the political reality of the situation which is that this fucked up US system isn't giving you good options.
People aren't casting their votes for Biden because they have faith in Biden. They're voting against Trump.
That is the smart choice for smart Americans no matter how shit Joe Biden is and no matter how much there's need for a complete political overhaul. You can disagree with Biden despite voting for him. If you don't, you're helping Trump and we all fking know what that means.
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You are right, still they got you into a vicious cycle. They can shit on you every day as long as there is someone even worse. Imagine the parties sitting together laughing and deciding how bad one has to be to let the other be shown as the good guy. Yeah, stupid I know, I'm not smart. xD
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Now, imagine one of the teacher tells you if you pick him he will put the other one and everyone who disagree with him in jail, become the school dictator, and make sure you never have the option to choose your teacher again. Don't go vote this year and you might never have to worry about doing it again. For Christ the guy tried to destroy democracy in your country, if you cant see that, you're the one that lost contact with reality.
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you didn't get it at all
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Oops, did we forget Gaza?
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No, they just framed it as "Israel" instead of calling it genocide, and made it the same size as "Grammar" and "He's Old." It's very intentionally framed to make the ongoing genocide appear to be a minimal issue.
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There is also Bidens role in the Iraq war, that actually weighs quite heavy...
Trump is probably still worse, but Biden is bad, really bad.
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Definitely not biased at all. Israel which rapes, pillages and kills that's not at all a small thing. To try say that Biden is much better than trump is false. They're both poisons only difference is one is a loud mouth. Don't vote for Biden and set a precedence that supporting genocide as a US president will get you to lose your office chair.
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Wait, you seriously want another four years of Trump?
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The privileged are fine with a trump presidency if it means they can vote with a "clear conscience"
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Biden or trump doesn't make a difference for me in the grand scheme of things because policy is in the legislature with congress. I may be more likely to be harassed and hate crimed under trump but thats a sacrifice I'm willing to make to punish Biden and perhaps even set a political precedence.
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Think about it this way: Politically active people want to give Biden a choice: Aid An Ongoing Genocide Thus Risking Trump's Re-election OR Stop Supporting a Genocidal Regime And Maximize Reelection Chances.
The response is, so far: "No."
Genocide and the active support of it does not appear to be an electorally relevant issue for Biden. Or from the looks of it: many of his uncritical supporters.
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https://www.kktv.com/video/2024/03/01/biden-calls-immediate-cease-fire-gaza/
and
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/07/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news
And now
President Biden told the Israeli leader that airstrikes that killed aid workers were “unacceptable” and appeared to condition future support on how Israel changes course. https://archive.ph/t5tIi
Meanwhile the alternative
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-israel-finish-problem-gaza-1234981038/
The whole "Biden is bad because Israel" line is so absurd compared to Trump that it really must be Russian propaganda.
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- 404 error
- A pier Israel will control. The same country that's not letting enough food in and has a habit of blowing up food trucks.
- White House stopped short of directly mentioning weapons or financial aid.
At this point the only acceptable thing is to actually stop any aid other than food. And to demand that food be let in or start sanctions up to and including removing the advanced weapons they've been given.
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Oh yes, those are Biden's only problems. Certainly. Also that Israel stone fits on the screen so it ain't big enough
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Remember kids, if you want to aid a genocide just make sure your enemy is an even bigger piece of shit than you are. No consequences! Morality? Never heard of her.
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An enemy that will aid a genocide with even more enthusiasm and possibly help Russia start another one.
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If both options have the same stance on an issue, then you can not change the issue by voting.
Meaning, it is a non-voting issue and can not be used as an argument for voting.
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Absolutely. Does that mean you shouldn't criticise and push for a change of policy? The president of the United States is aiding a genocide. That should make every single American ashamed.
But yeah bOtH sIdEs!!1!!
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This makes the assumption that if trump were in power he wouldn't aid in Isreal's efforts to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Which would be incorrect.
Furthermore, that stack says alot more than "trump is a douche".
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Israel? Biden? Ffs 🙄
https://www.kktv.com/video/2024/03/01/biden-calls-immediate-cease-fire-gaza/
and
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/07/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news
And now
President Biden told the Israeli leader that airstrikes that killed aid workers were “unacceptable” and appeared to condition future support on how Israel changes course. https://archive.ph/t5tIi
Meanwhile the alternative
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-israel-finish-problem-gaza-1234981038/
The whole "Biden is bad because Israel" line is so absurd compared to Trump that it really must be Russian propaganda.
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So he's holding Israel responsible for any of the high profile civilian casualties right?
No? He's doubled down on letting them investigate themselves with no timeline and giving them advanced weaponry no matter what?
Wow. I guess you posted a bunch of smoke screen then didn't you?
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Check the top post for me confronting its OP. Guy is an absolute troll trying to antagonize any one who won't be a reductive ass hat.
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