The China They Don't Want You to See: Xinjiang
The China They Don't Want You to See: Xinjiang
351 comments
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Great video, isn't the first one I've seen about the region, probably won't be the last. I always love how in every one of these type of videos if you go and talk to regular people everyone is pretty nice no matter what country you are in. Kinda just proves the the majority of the world's problems are not the construction of the average person, but a select few individuals who make the world a challenging place to live in.
Anyways, videos like these make me want to live or at the very least visit China so very very badly! I'd need way more time than I have because China is HUGE!
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no, i think it's
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Increasingly hard to tell if someone is trolling or honestly doesn't understand what is/isn't a decent source.
I guess the silver lining is that these sorts of conversations are all for the benefit of people lurking, anyway.
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No one image or video is going to give you a full picture of what a place or it's population is like
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To the defense of China, there are other videos. There is the assessment of dozens of Muslim countries , who sent representatives to Xinjiang.
On the accusation, you have the report by Adrian Zenz a CIA-funded religious fanatic who interviewed 8 people and used colorful extrapolations and interpretations to concoct a genocide narrative.
China is allegedly genociding a Muslim people, but almost no Muslim country buys that narrative. To the defense of those Muslims, come the US government -- the entity that kills Muslim people with no hesitation, and also has "destroy China" as its top foreign policy priority. Give me a break.
Let me guess: all those dozens of Muslim brown-people countries are being tricked by China, but white countries are immune to deception.
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Click bait
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Brain dead
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it's a nice video. Xinjiang is beautiful and his Mandarin is impressive, but I don't get the title.
The popular tourist spots and common light topics of conversation are exactly the China and Xinjiang they want you to see.
This is the Xinjiang they don't want you to see:
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This image is over 3 years old mate. The last of these centers was closed in 2023. You got anything that isn't horrendously out of date or are you still scraping the barrel of the media produced by the reeducation program that only lasted 1 year before all centers were closed?
EDIT: Lmaoooo source is Adrian Zenz's twitter account lololololol it's genuinely fucking hilarious that it takes 2 seconds to discover CIA funded propaganda is the primary source of your brainworms
Anyway, the facilities that made up this program completely deradicalised a region that was receiving islamic extremist terrorist attacks every week which would kill 10-30 people in each attack. They achieved this without killing one single person and without permanently imprisoning anyone. The western approach would have been to bomb them into oblivion. Which approach is obviously better?
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America has the largest prison population on the planet, with slave labor,removed, torture, inadequate medical care, and inhumane conditions. That's the America liberals don't want you to see.
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The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
Background
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
In the aftermath of the Cold War, several factors contributed to a resurgence of separatist sentiment among Uyghur nationalists in Xinjiang. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. Some high-profile examples include:
- Ürümqi bombings (2014): SUVs were driven into a busy street market in Ürümqi, the capital of Xinjiang. Up to a dozen explosives were thrown at shoppers from the windows of the SUVs. The SUVs crashed into shoppers, then collided with each other and exploded. 43 people were killed and more than 90 wounded.
- Kunming train station attack (2014): A group of 8 knife-wielding Uyghur separatists attacked passengers in the Kunming Railway Station in Kunming, Yunnan, China, killing 31 people, and wounding 143 others. The attackers pulled out long-bladed knives and stabbed and slashed passengers at random.
- Tiananmen Square attack (2013): A car ran over pedestrians and crashed in Tiananmen Square in Beijing, in a terrorist suicide attack. Five people died in the incident; three inside the vehicle and two others nearby. An additional 38 people were injured.
- Kashgar attack (2013): A group of Uyghur militants attacked a police station and government offices in Kashgar, killing 15 people and injuring more than 40 others.
- Kashgar attack (2011): Two Uyghur men hijacked a truck, killed its driver, and drove into a crowd of pedestrians. They got out of the truck and stabbed six people to death and injured 27 others.
- Ürümqi riots (2009): Ethnic riots erupted in Ürümqi. They began as a protest, but escalated into violent attacks that mainly targeted Han people. A total of 197 people died, most of whom were Han people or non-Muslim minorities, with 1,721 others injured and many vehicles and buildings destroyed.
- Kashgar attack (2008): Two men drove a truck into a group of approximately 70 jogging police officers, and proceeded to attack them with grenades and machetes, resulting in the death of sixteen officers.
In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labor, began to emerge.
The Material Conditions Necessary for Terrorism and Extremism
As materialists, we understand that terrorists don't magically appear out of thin air. There are material reasons for people resorting to such extreme measures. In order to combat the threat of rising extremism, these reasons must be indentified and resolved. One of the main causes is economic marginalization. When people are economically disadvantaged or excluded from mainstream economic activity, they may be more likely to turn to extremism as a way to address their grievances and gain a sense of purpose. Generally speaking, people who feel like they have a bright future do not resort to terrorism. It is only when people feel hopeless or trapped that they resort to such measures.
If the issue is that the Uyghurs were disenfranchised, and that is the reason they were susceptible to religious fundamentalism and resorting to terrorism, then surely the solution is to enfranchise them to remove that material condition. This is what the Strike Hard campaign ultimately sought to accomplish.
Counterpoints
There is only flimsy evidence for the most egregious of the allegations being made about what China is doing in Xinjiang, it should be an easy matter to dismiss. Normally, the burden of evidence lies with the party making the claims. However, Western media is happy to spread rumours and present the allegations as having merit because it serves America's imperialist interests. Additionally, given the severity of the allegations and the gravity of the crimes China is being accused of, this issue has been taken very seriously by the international community, especially the international Muslim community.
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:
- Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter A/HRC/41/G/17 to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
...separatism and religious extremism has caused enormous damage to people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang, which has seriously infringed upon human rights, including right to life, health and development. Faced with the grave challenge of terrorism and extremism, China has undertaken a series of counter-terrorism and deradicalization measures in Xinjiang, including setting up vocational education and training centers. Now safety and security has returned to Xinjiang and the fundamental human rights of people of all ethnic groups there are safeguarded. The past three consecutive years has seen not a single terrorist attack in Xinjiang and people there enjoy a stronger sense of happiness, fulfillment and security. We note with appreciation that human rights are respected and protected in China in the process of counter-terrorism and deradicalization.
We appreciate China’s commitment to openness and transparency. China has invited a number of diplomats, international organizations officials and journalist to Xinjiang to witness the progress of the human rights cause and the outcomes of counter-terrorism and deradicalization there. What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media. We call on relevant countries to refrain from employing unfounded charges against China based on unconfirmed information before they visit Xinjiang.
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)
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A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror
China is not the only country to have faced faced a challenge of this nature. The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in March 2003, which was justified by the Bush administration as a response to Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
A former commander of NATO’s forces in Europe, [retired General Wesley] Clark claims he met a senior military officer in Washington in November 2001 who told him the Bush administration was planning to attack Iraq first before taking action against Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan...
Clark says after the 11 September 2001 attacks, many Bush administration officials seemed determined to move against Iraq, invoking the idea of state sponsorship of terrorism, “even though there was no evidence of Iraqi sponsorship of 9/11 whatsoever”...
He also condemns George Bush’s notorious Axis of Evil speech made during his 2002 State of the Union address. “There were no obvious connections between Iraq, Iran, and North Korea,” says Clark...
Instead, Clark points the finger at what he calls “the real sources of terrorists – US allies in the region like Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia”.
Clark blames Egypt’s “repressive policies”, Pakistan’s “corruption and poverty, as well as Saudi Arabia’s “radical ideology and direct funding” for creating a pool of angry young men who became “terrorists”.
US ‘plans to attack seven Muslim states’ | Al Jazeera (2003)
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million.
The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)
In summary:
- The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries regardless of their actual connection to the attackers, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
- China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.
#Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?
Let's review some of the people and organizations involved in strongly promoting this narrative.
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. His anti-Communist and anti-China stances influence his work and makes him selective in his use of data. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. He also ignores the broader historical and political context of the situation in Xinjiang, such as the history of separatist movements and terrorism in the region.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
Why is this narrative being promoted?
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. In this case, there is a compelling material reason for the US the promote a narrative of a genocide occurring in Xinjiang.
The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. The project has been described as a new Silk Road, connecting China with its neighboring countries and expanding trade and economic ties with the rest of the world.
The BRI includes plans for major infrastructure projects in Xinjiang. These projects aim to improve connectivity and facilitate trade between China and countries in Central Asia and beyond. The Xinjiang region is critical part of the Belt.
For the United States, the BRI is a threat to its economic and political dominance. For one, the BRI could undermine US efforts to promote "free trade" agreements, which have often been used to lock in economic reforms and policies that benefit American corporations. The BRI also threatens to undermine US influence in key regions of the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, by providing countries with an alternative source of financing and investment that is not tied to US-led institutions like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
Moreover, the BRI could help to shift the global balance of power away from the United States and towards China. By expanding its economic influence and deepening its ties with other countries, China could emerge as a more formidable competitor to the United States in the global arena.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
Additional Resources
Video Essays:
- What's daily life like for Uyghurs? A talk with Uyghur influencer Sabira Samat and Daniel Dumbrill. | Li Jingjing (2021)
- Cutting Through the BS on Xinjiang: Uyghur Genocide or Vocational Training? | BadEmpanada (2021)
- Discussing The Xinjiang/Uyghur "Genocide" With Bay Area 415 | Daniel Dumbrill (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
- Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang | (2019)
- The Xinjiang Atrocity Propaganda Blitz | Nia Frome (2021)
- Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation | Qiao Collective (2021)
- Xinjiang: Understanding Complexity, Building Peace | International Diplomatic Institute (2021)
- Fight against Terrorism and Extremism in Xinjiang: Truth and Facts | Information Office of the People's Government of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (2022)
Social Media Resources, Threads, and Masterposts:
- Twitter thread about the WUC | shaedon sharpe’s rifles via Twitter (2021) Archive
- List of fact checks | 8Bitsblu via r/communism (2020) Archive
- r/Sino wiki entry | FeatsOverComments via r/sino (2020)
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you can call it a genocide, sure.
it is a cultural genocide in any case, according to the people who live there. The fear of the consequences for their family keep them from speaking out publicly.
that's a good point, thanks
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Hey I know all the users asking for sources is really overwhelming and you said you knew some people there. A Chinese user visited the re-education camps and what he saw shocked me, you can read about it here: https://hexbear.net/post/4764089 and here: https://hexbear.net/post/4764090 I'm curious if your friends could verify this
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Looks like a jail or prison of some sort, they have those in every country on earth so idk why you think they would care particularly who sees it, also no way for us to know where the pic was actually taken so kinda pointless for you to post it like this
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I like to travel, learn and tell stories.
Travel podcast here
New episodes Wednesdays and Saturdays.
Q&A community: https://crazypeople.online/c/bitofarambler
Any travel questions are welcome, they don't have to be podcast-related
FAQ
how do you travel long-term?
The cost of living in most countries is around $500 USD a month for transportation, rent, utilities and food altogether; teaching English pays $2000 USD a month with zero qualifications or experience.
every month I taught English, I had a few exrra months of my cost of living.
I taught English for about 7 years.
as long as you're making more than 500 USD a month remotely in any job, you can travel long-term.
if you want to backpack, CoL shoots down to $200 a month real quick.
You know, you could just travel to Xinjiang and see it for yourself, right? You can very likely travel there without a visa even.
Starting December 2024, transit travelers from 54 countries can stay for up to 10 days without a visa. Better yet, visitors from France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and several Asian countries enjoy 30-day visa-free stays through 2025.
US, UK, and Canadian passport holders can visit for 6 days visa-free.
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The Xinjiang they don't want you to see is someone being walked in cuffs?
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What do you propose as the proper way for China to deal with violent religious reactionaries? Maybe they should've focused more energy on a decades long occupation of Afghanistan that accomplished literally nothing except a vast amount of grifting.
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The decades-long occupation pretty much never works and just engenders more revolution, so I wouldn't recommend that route.
also, the "violent religious reactionaries" is a bit of a leap from the sheer volume of detainees.
I think the violent ones should be dealt with much differently than the non-violent activists, but they are apparently treated the same.
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lol
lmao, even
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”They” in the title isn't referring to China.
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Yes, China is evil because you found the picture of a prisioner. The US imprisions 6 times as many people per capita, and has widespread slave prison labor, but China is the threat.
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The "They" is those who are anti-China who politicize views/definitions of genocide. It is a dangerous rule for lemmy subs to have "never question genocide propaganda". Some CIA/nazi supporting subs/posters will make the case that showing Xinjiang normalcy is Chinese propaganda.
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351 comments