[DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] Thunderbolts*

While waiting for the post credits scene I noticed the "Fantastic Four Main Theme" during the music section. So the credits spoiled the post credits.
But, does that mean Fantastic Four is going to end with the Fantastic Four universe collapsing and our heroes escaping? I sort of assumed that would be the case, but weird to see another film confirm it.
- I'm hoping the fantastic four leave their universe, but the threat follows in chase instead of destroying theirs.
  
  There is also a question of Dr Doom, where is he? Since a lot of the Fantastic Four trailer seems to be about them already being saviors of the world, maybe Dr. Doom is on the ship we saw in the post-credits, and The Fantastic Four will show up later in a different ship.
- Can you explain what that scene implied for the less initiated? Is the new F4 we saw a trailer for in another universe?
  
  Yeah. So it's already confirmed that the Fantastic Four we're going to meet in "Fantastic Four: First Steps" are in a different universe. So the retro future 60s is unique to that universe. So none of the heroes we've come to know exist in that universe.
  There is a scene in the latest Fantasy Four trailer that looks like the Earth blowing up and a Fantastic Four ship just outside the Earth.
  So the obvious setup is that the Fantastic Four will fail to save their Earth (from Galactus) and end up in the main 616 universe, which may be what we saw in the Thunderbolts* post credits scene.
  Of course it may not be that simple.

Just got out, just want to note what a great job everyone did. Absolutely believable performances top to bottom.
That being said, I wish the guinea pig bit payed off later. :)
- They should have had the guinea pig in the New Avengers tower during the post-credits. Cleaning the cage could have been one of Bob's duties.
- You can see the guinea pig during the credits, on the covers of the newspapers

Just got home from seeing it and I'm still pumped! Honestly, it's a great film. Just a hair over two hours, yet it flew by without feeling rushed. I'll avoid spoilery comments for now, since the movie really opens tomorrow.
- I agree. I actually did think it was a little rushed at times, but overall no big issues. Great movie.

I really liked this movie, but I feel like it had the opportunity to rise closer to the quality of Captain America: Winter Soldier that it missed.
To get this out of the way, it was very good. It did a lot of things well.
That said, I feel that it embraced certain widespread bad habits in superhero movies that it could've overcome, and which would've made this one of the great Marvel movies.
Principally, characters just show up in costumes sometimes for fights that don't make great sense, talk, and then reappear long distances away after an unspecified-but-short amount of time at the next key location.
Sometimes, a bit of effort is made to provide a bit of explanation, as is the case when Alexi overhears Val in his limo. But let's be honest: the director of the CIA riding around in an unfamiliar limo (driven by a former Soviet spy!) having sensitive conversations with one clearly conflicted lackey is more Venture Bros. than All the King's Men.
Does it ruin the movie? Of course not. But it's representative of the tropes. Where did Bucky get those anti-humvee grenades?? And why the hell did he use one on an unarmed civilian vehicle in the middle of the United States?!? How did he even get them to the gas station? Did they walk because he blew up their car against all reason!?!
Bucky just shows up to superhero. He enters the nightmare dimension that brutalizes you with your worst crimes and flippantly jokes that it's unpleasant. It tries to sidestep context that would actually make it richer!
For instance: what if after Bucky blew out the tires on those trucks and flipped one the way he did he was followed up soon after by a convoy of state highway patrolmen to take those soldiers into custody? That would've ruled. It makes the story bigger! What the fuck did Val tell those guys to get them to carry out orders that fucked?? The tension goes up! This isn't happening totally out of sight! People are going to hear about Bucky getting tangled up in this, and hear stories about black ops vans live-firing on domestic soil with unclear authority! What??
And would it have killed the writers to have Bucky enter Bob's attic screaming violent threats in Russian before collapsing to the floor gasping though sobs? To have him just utterly break down and remind us that he was forced to commit atrocities and kill Innocents and people he loved? And then try to compose himself and focus on his mission in the midst of what is clearly a barely managed panic attack?
And then have Yelina point out that it can get better for Bob, because Bucky -- and all of them! -- are proof that Bob IS NOT ALONE IN HIS PAIN???
Aggh! That would've been AMAZING! They could've done more with this if they didn't do the comic-book corner cutting. The corners are where the true greatness often comes!!
- It's fairly in-character for Bucky's worst trauma NOT being his time as the Winter Soldier.
  Other than that, you're spot on.
  
  I don't know what you mean. Can you elaborate?

The B-vengers. Nice. I wonder who’s on Sam’s team.
- Captain America II, The Falcon II, Ant-Man, Shang-Chi, and maybe Black Panther II. By the time of Doomsday, probably add Thor and either Captain Marvel or Photon.
  We'll also probably get the Young Avengers at some point. Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye II, Stature (Cassie Lang), America Chavez, Ironheart, and perhaps Hulkling and Wiccan.
  
  They’d better hurry up on those Young Avengers

This creative collaboration worked really well. It's interesting because Marvel usually hires these indie directors and it doesnt work out well, but this time it did. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Jake Schreier brought over quite a few of his people from A24.
And it is a good thing that watching this movie didn't feel like watching the same MCU formula again and again. That's one aspect I also liked about Brave New World. Contrary to BNW, this movie integrates all its fight scenes very well into the flow of the story.
It is a very profound, very smart movie. Also great sequel to Black Widow movie.

Did anyone else get heavy Alan Wake and Control vibes from Void/Bob? His powers felt a lot like Jesse, the shadow and darkness theme, and the dream world.