How do you find meaning in life?
What do you keep living for? Is there a specific person, goal, or idea that you work for? Is there no meaning to life in your opinion?
Context: I've been reading Camus and Sartre, and thinking about how their ideas interact with hard determinism.
I live to be in peace, hang out with my cat and have fun. That’s pretty much it. Right now having fun is trying to fix an old radio.
I'm not sure if believe in a "meaning" to life, but I'm here for a good time. I'm married (2nd time) with 3 kids. I work to support us and pay the bills. But why do I keep living? Why not kill myself in leiu having a cup of coffee? Because death is inevitable and if it's going to happen anyway, I can use the brief time here to experience all that I can.
I figure the Universe is going to go on with or without me and there's not a thing I can do to change anything. But I'm not here to change the Universe, I'm here so it can change me. I'm a bird soaring through an infinite void with a brief passing through a bright window. Why not appreciate the view while it lasts? And if I can, why not try to make anyone's else's brief time out of the void a good time too? Life is absurd, existence is chaos, and it's all just funny as absolute shit.
I think really, there's no reason for anything but ice cream is good, hikes in the woods are rad, hanging out with pets and friends is joy. Why stop doing that just because nothing matters?
This is my philosophy. I credit George Carlin for summarizing it with “People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.”
Because death is inevitable and if it's going to happen anyway, I can use the brief time here to experience all that I can.
There it is. As far as we know, this is the one chance we have at existence. Revel in it.
Damn. I'm saving this in my notes.
I'm no well read philosopher, but the idea that life has a meaning is repulsive to me. It implies that there is a correct state of affairs, and introduces the possibility that you've done something wrong, that you failed to fulfill some purpose. Nuts to that, there are no wrong choices, besides the obvious ones like murder and not brushing your teeth
Well mate I'm sorry to say you just funded a new philosophy school AND a new religion called shiny teeth.
Jokes apart, I agree 100 with you and the concept that only the person themselves can decide what is the purpose of their life. And 11 out of 10 times it won't make sense to anyone else, so no point in taking it too seriously.
Interesting perspective. I think I kinda agree.
I have a logical view of the universe as deterministic and that nothing matters, but my feelings contradict this, which is fine.
However, the thought that life HAS to have meaning as something negative is a new perspective, in that it implies moral and ethics.
Meaning to me necessitates having gold teeth. You don't need anything else in life if you can glint at people.
This is it. You die and you are gone, gone, gone. Make every day count and don’t waste time bargaining with an imaginary god for a preferred place in her cinematic universe.
It’s not grim. It’s extremely freeing. ‘Now’ is all there is.
Make every day count
But that's such horrible pressure.
But those days where you just relax and enjoy yourself count as good days so that's ok too.
I have felt that once upon a time. But since there is no external meaning, I have decided our main purpose is to fart around a lot. I greatly enjoy those days when I can just be, without pressure to produce something.
Maybe that’s inner peace?
This is one of my cats, do you think she's looking for meaning?
Life just... is. Don't look for a deeper meaning. Enjoy what you have.
Adorable picture :) Unfortunately my cat has found a purpose - being a bastard and knocking over anything she can, and loudly demanding attention at 2am. She's still wonderful of course!
shrug
Foods pretty good, lot of things i haven't tried yet to look forward to. I like hearing/reading/seeing new stories, too.
Ive been lucky to have discovered Stoicism early in life and that what has been driving me for decades now!
To put it shortly Stoicism focuses on self growth with things like identifying natural human virtues (need for knowledge, justice, temperance, courage) and focusing life around improving those. This is expressed through a princicle called dichotomy of control which says that there are things that are out of our control like death that we shouldn't focus on and things that are like natural virtues that are something we can do to improve upon.
It also deconstructed and included all of the cool contemporary ideas like mindfulness and being cosmopolitan two millenia ago so its a really great suite of natural philosophies that survived the test of time.
Stoicism is also low key Idealist as in your natural perception of your own virtues and state is the only real thing that matters which is what makes this ideology so much more freeing. You don't judge yourself against some mystical ideal but to your own perception of purpose and growth.
It's an easy, frictionless and a highly rewarding way to live :)
It's interesting, I think I've tried engaging with Stoicism before, but it feels to me that it kind of ignores how sometimes the romantic should take control? I can't remember which Stoicist (Epictetus I think?) said that we should be so detached that the death of a child should feel like a glass breaking, but I don't think I would be able to rationalise and internalise that personally. Do you think there's space for strong feelings in Stoicism?
That's a common misunderstanding and Stoicism is not about detachment. The quote you're referring is mostly a thought exercise to illustrate that dwelling on past is unproductive even in extreme circumstances.
Though contemporary Stoicism acknowledges importance of ritual and grief but it still has to be within reasonable context of dichotomy of control as in you can't change the outcome no matter how hard you grief and you're just losing finite minutes of your life but you can spend this time to fairly honor the event and memories.
Temperance is a key virtue here and its heavily inspired by Aristotel's Golden Mean which says that extremes are really inefficient and should be avoided at all times.
As for strong feelings - Stoicism has nothing against them either. Justice is one of the virtues and its really impossible to get to a just conclusion without strong feelings like sympathy. Though, just like Buddhism, Stoics practice mindfulness and have to choose to go to strong feelings not obey. This is again due to dichotomy of control where thoughts and feelings just appear and we can't do anything here to stop that but we can choose how we react once we process them!
Stoicism is a very powerful framework cause it doesn't really tell you what to do exactly just gives you a logical framework based on human nature. It doesn't mean you becoming a robot - quite the opposite - you should become more human not being hijacked by unfair processes.
Stoicism can sometimes read like a very early form of cognitive behavioral therapy
You're not far off - it was put together by dudes who just wanted to socialize and talk philosophy and metaphysic on a porch which is called Stoa thus literally Stoics.
CBT is actually heavily inspired by Stoicism and the author openly credits Stoicism and especially Epictetus :)
Honest to god, the most tangible and practical definition that I've gotten to, so far, is that meaning comes about, when you strive to do good. Simple as that. Sure, there are a lot of ways to do 'that' in the world, but it should all work to some degree.
Strive to make the world better and to do good.
That's really interesting, where would you say you source your idea of good from? I think I personally have a hard time grounding any sense of morality as I'm not sold on the idea that someone could be truly responsible for an action. I don't mean this as a criticism, I am just interested in your viewpoint for what is good or bad.
The LLM out here tryna parse morality lol love your user name.
Wack of me to comment here but I’d like to hear more about your logic for the perpetual passing of accountability! It’s true enough that our lived experience is basically dependency hell. I guess for chiming in I owe you my “source of good” haha it changes the further you zoom out but it starts at collective harm reduction and burrows all the way down to showing up for the people you care about.
Even when they lack the perspective to see themselves as the perpetrator. We roll that boulder up the hill lol
Good counter question, thanks.
I am still trying to figure out, in what way I can know that something is actually true and good, besides that is just sounds and feels true. It's not certain that I am the right agent to decide what is true in the moment. I am partly an animal, after all.
I understand light from the sun, compared to darkness, and I understand how saying something can reflect the real world as factually true, compared to something that is not, ie. telling a lie.
But, that 'being good is a virtue', and what 'good' and 'virtue' mean whan applied, is not so clear.
I clearly have a sufficient and functional understanding of the above, (innate, instinctual and/or learned?), which is why my first comment still works, but I feel like I should be able to verify that my idea of 'good' is still true.
Do you people have any good pointers to that?
For me personally it's because I'm selfish. There are no fully altruistic acts, but "doing good" makes me feel good, and I enjoy feeling good, so why not? 😃
About 20 years ago, I was walking through a city centre with a friend, on the way to catch a train. A couple of Mormons tried to stop us, asking, "Have you ever thought about the purpose of life?"
Barely breaking stride, I shouted out, "Hot sweaty man sex!"
I don't consider that to be the purpose of life1, but remembering the look on their faces helps keep me grounded whenever I'm inclined to consider questions that cannot be answered.
That said, my resolution to the conflict between free will and determinism is to assume assume that 'truth' operates on a principle of equivalence. That's to say, if two models generate the equivalent outcomes, they are equivalently 'true'. The universe we observe could have deterministic rules that give rise to the same observable outcomes as one in which we have absolute free will, in which case the two models are equivalent. It would make no sense to endow one with a greater truth than the other.
That's a slightly difference definition of 'truth' than is commonly accepted, but it works for me.
1: It's just a nice bonus.
I don't think I necessarily agree with the way you present truth, but it's an interesting line of thinking. I do definitely agree with your opinion on the bonuses life has to offer!
Meaning must be generated, not found.
I think “What is the meaning of (my) life?” is not a question that we should be focusing on. It assumes that there is meaning to life. Neither is saying “Life is meaningless,” as it assumes exactly that. Both approaches presupposes an answer.
I'd rather think about "What can I do today/tomorrow/this week/this year/in this life?" That is a lot more digestible than chasing a meaning, or dismissing what could be meaningful about my actions.
I'm already here, so.... What is it under my control that I can do something about? What can I do about it? Something along those lines.
PS:
The overall tone of my response might be nihilist, or having shades of stoicism, but I am personally biased towards Epicureanism (not the present-day meaning, but the more classical meaning) which gives emphasis to ataraxia, or put very loosely, that state of contentedness. It's not about avoiding pain and preferring (temporary) pleasure, but rather a more stable state absent of pain and having pleasure that is brought about by mindful actions. I am not exactly learned in this so please take my words with a pinch of salt (or several).
🥰
First, great choice in reading (Im a fan of Camus as well).
As for the meaning of life thing...
Thats the neat part. You don't.
Thats why in absurdist fiction like Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Its not supposed to make sense and the universe is under no obligation to do so for you (the books even postulate that the universe does not want anyone to know so if someone figures it out it winks out of existance and replaced itself with something weirder, some scientists think this has happened before).
That goes back to Camus point about the remedies for the bleakness of early-mid 20th century philosophy. He proposed three options, Nhilism, a leap of faith (looking at you Kierkegaard), or absurdism, the last being what the doctor perscribes, but also requires the most effort because you have to find your question to the ultimate answer your self... Or not, who cares. Lets go spend some time by a lake that thinks its a gin & tonic.
I hope that I can come around to the absurdist perspective sooner or later, it does seem quite appealing to me, but I'm still yet to be convinced by Camus' argument that the rebellion against the absurd has any more value than your other options. How would you say you find that sort of value?
Lets break down the arguments, and throw up that content warning because were about to do a philosophy.
Damn this took all day to write and got a little rambly... Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.
I’m not the original poster, but their perspective resonates with mine quite well.
We are biological beings of great fragility and complexity. I subscribe to some ‘spiritual’ ideas, but that stops when we get to the persistence of consciousness after death.
Absurdism simply recognizes our biology. Laughter releases feel-good chemicals. It is our refuge from the inexorable grind of raw-dogging reality.
If I had to choose a religion, it would be Bokononism.
“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.”
I'm going to throw a trigger warning on this next part just in case:
You might be underselling entertainment to yourself here. Experiencing creation and your own interpretation of these creations is pretty fucking magical when you think about it.
I want to see my planted apple tree bear fruit for the first time (it's looking good this year so far!), and then I want to try splicing in a branch of my neighbours cherry tree, and then I want to keep building gradually to have a mutant tree with all kinds of fruit throughout the season. I'll be the creator of my own Tree of Life.
Small goals, small joys, small triumphs - it's what'll make my life grand, I believe.
Logically I am a determinist and a nihilist. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
But I can't live life like that. Life is lived through feelings and it feels like I have free will. So I feel meaning by contributing positively and that my choices in life matter.
So, I contribute, try to do good, be helpful and nice to people, and also fulfill some hedonistic desires such as good food, lovemaking, shows, etc.
Two phrases I like for this:
There isn’t the meaning of life, there is your meaning of life. This realistic approach recognizes our constantly shifting values and how radically different it can be per person.
And of course Herbert’s
The mystery of life isn't a problem to be solved, but a reality to experience
I think B.B. King has the solution:
I've got a good mind to give up on living and go shopping instead.
Yep. Riding With The King. He knows when the going gets tough the tough go shopping.
By multiplying 21 by 2
I multiply 6 by 9.
Woah woah, not so loud! The psychologists might hear you.
Multiply 14023 by 3
Isn't the idea of a meaning of life irrelevant if you believe that the universe is deterministic?
Well sure, I can say that objectively it is pointless to try and give my life meaning - but I think that it is still part of the human condition to try and strive for some purpose. More of an emotional need than a philosophical need would be the way I would frame it.
You could say, in a way, that I live to convey what to live for.
Perhaps I've done a little too much LSD (probably not), but I have a certain innate understanding of recovering from rock bottom. I want to help people help themselves, as psychedelics have done for me. I hope the insight I have about myself can translate to others' struggles. Any number of things could end up helping or hurting someone, and I'm doing my best to provide resources to people on learning how to do more than simply tolerate life. Psychonautics were what helped me, but what would help my friends, or people I don't know at all?
First will come my psychonautic journal on harm reduction in substance use (my main hobby in life), but then a book about the hardships and joys of life in a more broad sense.
The world hurts right now. It needs all the help it can get, so I do what I can. When a friend hurts, I listen, and I do my best to make them smile.
Truly, simply being a human is good enough for me.
I've had zero interest in taking psychedelics in probably almost 10 years or so at this point (what's the quote, "if you get the message, drop the phone?" something like that?), but I feel as though so much of my understanding of the world, and myself, was facilitated through them. I can't imagine that I would be nearly as self-possessed and self-realized as I am now, if I hadn't gone through those experiences when I was younger.
found an interesting article on the changing of that quote. didn't even know Alan Watts had any overlap with psychedelics! always been a fan of both, this is a joyous day!!
https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b5f388730fc
Indeed. For me, it's just exploring for fun, now.
I have a lot of books left to read.
Books and computer games for me
It's a great relief to come to the realization that there is no grand inherent meaning to life, and no need for one. No constant worrying about what the meaning is and how much time you have left to "figure it out", no need to feel like there's some big thing you have to accomplish, no pressure to be someone important or make an impact on the world. No need to find the correct religion or moral code. It's simple: we're all (humans and animals) just trying to live our lives in peace and find happiness, so as for goals: Live and let live. Try to not hurt each other, and better yet, help each other--helping1 someone isn't always easy but it's a good feeling. It creates a feeling of meaning/purpose better than most anything else I can think of.
1: besides doing some task for someone, it could also be as simple as a smile, a kind word, or just listening/being there.
There are three ways to look at the meaning of life.
The realistic: the is no meaning of life, no grand idea behind it.
The biological: the meaning of life is to procreate.
The philosophical: The meaning of life is to make the world better than when you arrived.
Since the first two are boring to talk about, I'll skip right to the third, making the world better than it was when you arrived.
In my case, I am an IT guy, I solve other people's problems and enable them to do their job, making their day slightly better.
I am also a hobby photographer, who share photos for free on the internet, people seem to like them so I have made their day slightly better as well.
Perhaps I can make your day slightly better by linking my Pixelfed: https://metapixl.com/Stoy
Those owl pictures definitely made my day better, cheers :))
Great photos, really. You have a good eye for details, and I like the 'appreciation-snapshot' type of photography, like with the Icom IC-R6, the throttle of the steam ship, the lynx, and the lights in the front landing gear of the airplane.
It reminds me of those moments where you look around, and you notice a pleasing or interesting detail which catches your attention. The more of those moments I have, the more I appreciate the life and the positive in the world we created.
People have put a lot of hours into all the good we have in the world, and sometimes I am reminded through a detail.
Im not sure. I stay for my family and husband and my animals.
But I wouldn't mind dying. Eternal rest from all the grind. Even if there is nothing after death. It would be nice to just sleep forever.
You climb the tallest mountain you can find, and you ask the old man sitting there.
To which the old man replies: "Man, what the fuck is up with all of you people coming up here to ask me what the meaning of life is? I moved to the top of the tallest mountain I could find to get away from you all!"
If the true meaning of life is to move to the tallest mountain and isolated yourself from everyone and everything then I don't really want to know it thanks gramps
I have so many goals man. I wanna travel the world, meat new people, stay in one of those hostels or that website where you can work to stay. I wanna scuba dive, rock climb, surf, run marathons, hikes and all sorts of stuff before I get too old to do anything fun.
meat new people
Found the 65 year old planning a trip to SEA
I do wanna go to SEA though. Cause they got good scuba dive spots
I did this kind of self-exploration at one point. I used to find all my meaning through work, which I later realized was leaving me feeling unfulfilled. So I lowered my professional ambitions in favor of focusing on the relationships I had with close friends and family.
Then I changed genders. And then those relationships got completely fucked up. And now I feel like I have nothing left to live for.
So I guess if you're looking for meaning, my advice would be to pick something that doesn't depend on other people.
I live to be a good person. Figuring out what that means is a lot of reading, reasoning, and experimentation. I'm not sure you even need to justify wanting to be a good person, but maybe it is good to do good.
I have discovered that the meaning of life (for me) is to just exist. Whatever I do in life, I was meant to and builds on why I am here.
Zoom in. I don't care much for the troubles in the world. I vote, but that's that. I care for my family and friends and for my personal development. In that order. Lately it's been mostly the latter. That is all right for a while, but eventually I'll have to put things back in the right order.
What do you keep living for?
I want to see what happens in the future.
Is there a specific person, goal, or idea that you work for?
My primary goal is to retire and not have to work anymore.
Is there no meaning to life in your opinion?
There is no external meaning. People can provide their own meaning.
It's about connection. You can feel it when it's there with your loved ones, in art, in nature, anywhere you can find it. You can't think it into being. You can only open yourself up to it when it's there.
There isn't any... you must provide the meaning to your life on your own
It's shits and giggles all the way down, my friend!
until someone shits and giggles
There is none. You get used to it.
I'm religious so that's pretty much figured out for me lol
Which
*Witch
Roman catholic
that’s pretty much figured out for me
Why are people OK with this?
I don't get what you mean
there is no inherent meaning to life.
i choose to continue living each day because a) i am still enjoying myself enough to stick around, b) i'm a chicken and nothing has motivated me to voluntarily face quicker death just yet, c) i am committed to not fucking up my kids in that particular way if i can continue to avoid it, and d) i do work that matters and eases the suffering of others to create meaning for myself.
I'm not religious or spiritual so I'm a pure hedonist. I work so that I can maintain a comfortable life for my wife and I with vacations and other treats. In my 30s but not very interested in having children; might be tempted to adopt in my 40s but will need to see where I am at that point in my life.
Essentially the goal is to be happy as a clam (that is a strange phrase now I consider it). It would be nice to author something to leave my name for future generations but I kind of get that from contributing to open source projects when I get the chance.
Have experiences and respect other life. That's really it.
The Earth created lifeforms that can understand the universe. Even if there are other conditions out there that can create life like that, it's not common. There is unfathomable empty space between planets and their moons. To say nothing of between planets or stars or galaxies.
Good news! You're one of these rare combinations of matter that can understand the universe. In a real way, we are the universe trying to understand itself. Scientists explore it in a deep way, and should be respected for that, but you don't need a PhD to participate. A single celled organism who figured out better ways to swim in its little pool helped the universe understand itself. The first human to taste a strawberry helped the universe understand itself. Have experiences.
There's a lot of other life also participating in this, and they should be respected, too.
Meaning is something imposed on reality by consciousness, not something necessarily inherent to existence itself. I am here because here is where I am. What that means to me is that I should have a good time while the opportunity persists because all evidence seems to insist that the chance will not last forever.
So, eat. Be merry. Protect that which moves me and those who can not protect themselves. Help others to do the same. That's the meaning of life to me.
Meaning: try to do no harm, give love where I can, and hopefully leave the world a little better where I touched upon.
Why I keep living (bit of a TW):
Also experiencing video games.
Yeah I think I'm in the same boat as you here to be honest, as I can still acknowledge that a negative emotional impact on those I care about also negatively impacts my emotions, so that provides me with some grounding in the topic. Loose grounding though, especially if you take the idea that there is no meaning to its limits.
Do you have memories as a kid where it was pure fun and no expectations? I honestly think that there are 4 types of personalities that people lean towards:
Dogs, dog owners, dog guardians and cats
The dogs and the dog/cat guardians look for meaning in their life.
That’s fair.
I’m of the worldview that while technically there is no “meaning,” doesn’t mean there’s no effect (even if it’s infinitesimal). Just because there’s no purpose in pushing a ball across a table, it still moves when you touch it.
It also places, in philosophical framing, that humans are the creators and arbiters of the concept of our own “meaning.” The fact that we ask of it, and in some cases find there is no such thing from external forces, suggests that it comes from us. However you go from there is the beauty of the notion.
Bit of a side tangent lol but thank you for sharing and engaging :) /gen
Ecclesiastes is a good read. I found "Everything is meaningless" to be very liberating. The book does go on to say what is good: to love God of course, but also to eat, drink and enjoy your work. But the whole thing is worth a read.
I currently live to make life a little better for animals and other people. And when I have time left over I use creative outlets to create stuff.
The closest thing to meaning I believe in is derived from evolution. Meaning for me is to lift myself and those around me.
Well, Camus and Sartre are not exactly about finding meaning, but dealing with the world with no inherent meaning.
No advice here, but I suppose it would be rather difficult to argue for objective meaning of life under atheism, which seems prevalent here on lemmy, so I would consider the feasibility of the existentialist project, in creating meaning or living with the condradiction between our desire of meaning and the meaningless world.
I'm looking forward to lunch tomorrow
I don't think life has any kind of inherent meaning; it simply arose from random physical processes when the conditions were right and took off from there. I keep living mostly because it's kind of the default, and because I don't want to hurt others with my death.
I don't think there is meaning. I've never read Camus or Sartre and don't really know what determinism is (quick read on Wikipedia, I think I agree with it?), but
I keep living because it makes me feel good for the most part, and because the thought of dying makes me feel bad for the most part.
The purpose of life is not served by fretting about what its purpose is.
It’s a bit like sitting on a roller coaster rubbing your chin and wondering how to monetize the experience. Just put your hands up and scream. It’s nice.
It feels like a paradox to me: the meaning of life is to find meaning in life.
When I was young, raised religious, there was an intense focus on finding purpose in life, almost as if there is no value to life itself without some end goal.
After leaving religion and superstition behind everything that is left is remarkable, fascinating, and beautiful. There's no need for life to have a purpose, a sunset doesn't need to clock in to work, a rock doesn't have an active role to perform but it's still fine for it to exist, us too.
I used to wish there was done grander purpose, but have you ever considered where that ends? Say you do have an ultimate purpose on earth, to collect all the smeeshmups, you do it and then what? Say your purpose is to be a good little Christian person and go to heaven, then what? Glorify some monkey with an anus for eternity because he agreed you did a good job? Yikes
I definitely don't buy into there being some big thing that everyone should be working for in their life, but I do think that it's good for humans to develop meaning and purpose on a personal level - we need some drive in life or everything is just arbitrary and you have no reason to for one option to be preferable over another, if truly there is nothing that matters.
Yeah "grand purpose" is almost exclusively for losers. Why is my current purpose not good enough? It reeks of snake oil upsell
For the meaning in life to is explore and play with my best friend…my wife. Even my career has switched to something that feels more like play than a grind for a corporation who enjoys the lion’s share of my labour.
I think one of the best phrases I've heard from the atheist community is "Do No Harm". Very similarly, the Golden Rule, which almost every civilization has a version of, says "Do to others that which you would have them do to you". Beyond that, there are no rules one must abide by. If you would wish others to stand up for you when you cannot, then do so for them. If you wish that people would help you when you are in need, do so to them.
Ultimately, you create your own meaning from the little things you find joy in and if you follow the Golden Rule then you can help others do the same.
i only do what i want to do, no more or less
Life is for two things. 1. Experience 2. Love.
I think I won at life.
For me “it’s complicated”. I live with passive suicidal ideation on a daily basis. Some days are better than others, but generally speaking I don’t want to actually kill myself. However, the idea of being dead does not bother me as it ought other people.
That being said, I do stick around especially for my two sons. I could not bring myself to not be a part of their lives; especially right now as they are 12 and 10. I don’t want to rob them of their father, and I do want to see them through to when they have a life of their own and have their own family (whatever that may look like for them).
As for meaning in life: ultimately everything we do is only for the living. When I die, my life only matters to the people whom I was closest (my kids). Beyond that, who cares right? I have no delusions that I’ll be remembered by anyone else.
But I do have other things I’d like to achieve: find another love of my life, travel the world more, complete as much of my bucket list as possible (e.g. skydiving, bungee jumping, scuba diving, etc).