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Would You Rather @lemmy.dbzer0.com
dandelion @lemmy.blahaj.zone

would you rather be tortured for an hour and but have your memory of that hour wiped later, or be tortured for a minute but have lucidity and good memory of it later?

fucked up question, I know - but ultimately it's a question about suffering and experience of personhood - did "you" really experience the torture for an hour if you don't remember it later?

What about the hour where you were awake and present, before the memory is wiped? How much does that suffering matter? Does the fact that after the torture you won't remember override the suffering you will experience in the present during the torture, relative to suffering you will remember the rest of your life?

22 comments

  • I think you'd like Severance first of all.

    Second, if I do not remember it at ALL like including trauma responses or subconscious stuff, then the hour. EZ

    • Yes, though second season was disappointing to me, I really enjoyed first season.

      And yes, I think in this case there is no memory as though you had been under anaesthesia (but unlike anaesthesia, you will be fully conscious the whole hour and experience the suffering - so this is a bit adjacent to a Severance situation, someone is suffering and that someone is you, still).

  • Ngl, I've had things done to me that approached torture. I've had injuries bad enough that they might as well have been.

    I can handle almost anything for a minute, as long as it doesn't kill me.

    But an hour? You aren't coming out of that with the same level of health you went into it with, so remembering isn't important. Hell, I'd even say that having the consequences of the torture and not knowing how it happened is a form of torture itself.

    There's also the possibility, since you're exploring the hypothetical beyond just seeing what people say, that you would have the memories, just buried and inaccessible to your conscious mind. That actually happens with some trauma anyway.

    There's also the fact that part of some anaesthesia is drugs that block memory formation. So people have gone through what might be considered torture with their memories not being present afterward. So far, I've never seen reports of someone later gaining access to any memories from during surgery when those drugs are used. Some when they were not quite under, and some from after surgery, but before they were "awake" (which I've experienced), but not the period when memory formation was suppressed.

    So, as an argument for the memory wipe option, it could be a solid pick, if you add in that neither torture session would result in injury or illness. But, anything that you'd think of as torture normally isn't going to be risk free in the real world.

    • I think for the sake of the thought experiment, we will consider the torture method as being some fictitious method that causes great pain, distress, and suffering but no risk of death or injury at all. The idea here is that the hour isn't meant to be more risky in terms of injury, we're strictly focused on the pain and suffering you will experience - you either experience an hour of it and then forget, or you experience a minute and don't forget.

      I've also been through a lot of physical pain. Recently, hair removal has had me thinking a lot about pain and suffering, and one of the methods I have been using have been to take a large dose of CBD, which is known to reduce negative and traumatic memory formation, and since I started that I don't get as anxious before sessions even when my memory was that there was a lot of pain last time.

      I also get an hour of electrolysis once a week, and I never found a way to sufficiently dull the pain enough that it's tolerable, so I have introduced taking a benzodiazepene in a large enough dose that I actually have memory issues later, mostly to help keep me calm - which also reduces my sense of anxiety and suffering later even if I do remember that in the present moment it was painful.

      This relationship of memory to suffering and distress is interesting to me, because there is a sense that my perception of my self as a person extends through time, and memory is the way that hangs together, so messing with my memory seems to mess with the sense of suffering I experienced, even though I know it's an alteration.

      Anaesthesia drugs block memory formation but also block experience in the first place, and it's pretty important a patient not be awake and experiencing the pain and suffering for various reasons like physiological changes such as adrenaline being released and going into fight-or-flight, etc.

      • Makes total sense. I'm a chronic pain sufferer, so I've gone down some similar paths of thought. Can't do cbd personally; tried it and it hits me the same as weed itself does, which is unpleasant in my case. But I've had access to the usual combinations of pain management options, and that includes stuff like benzos that can alter memory formation and retention.

        So we've maybe not been on the exact same path, but we've got similar mud on our boots, so to speak. I guess anyone that's had prolonged treatments that hurt, or repeated acute pain causing injury/illness, and chronic pain patients all end up having the same basic options at some point. It isn't like there's hundreds of possibilities (yet).

        Surprisingly, there are circumstances where the mix of anaesthetics can be chosen so that consciousness isn't fully suppressed. There's also a clinically significant percentage of people that, while unable to move or react even on an involuntary level like heart rate, come to periods of consciousness during procedures. So the mixes sometimes get adjusted with the memory blocking agents even when the goal is total suppression of consciousness.

        It definitely isn't a super common thing, but it does happen just often enough that there's been some research into it, though without much in the way of results that explain what's going on in a useful way. Which is both interesting and terrifying to me.

22 comments