One party deserves criticism for being insufficient. One party deserves nothing but scorn and opposition.

If only the democrats actually listened to AOC and Sanders.
But they don't.
- "But what if we compromised with them and our donors, and then compromised with the Republicans, and then put on our shocked pikachu face when the Republicans don't compromise with us in turn???"
  Legit, the second half of the problem is related to our gerontocracy. These fucking dinosaurs are still acting like it's the 1970s and 1980s, when they first came to power.

Can we stop putting AOC and Sanders as Democrats please. At least these two are vocal.
- Sanders is not even a member of the Democratic Party.

Democrats are literally controlled-opposition
- Considering that Liberals are literally right wingers (Political Science 101) masquerading as leftists, yeah you are turds in every way.
  We actually agree on something

Americans need to stop saying the Democrats want universal healthcare. They don't and they've made that clear numerous times.
- Like when?
  
  Obamacare, the multiple times in 2016, 2020, and 2024 when they were deciding on a platform and universal healthcare never made the cut. They've had plenty of opportunities to push it and they never do.
- You are awsome

AOC is progressive, not a neoliberal. Saying liberals want universal healthcare is a straight up LIE
- The democratic party doesnt want universal healthcare
- Neoliberals are not typically liberals. You can be a progressive liberal
  Source: am one
  
  No shit. I am replying to the meme which implies democrats want universal healthcare - they dont.
- Progressive just means a low ranking democrap.

MTG is just there for the lols. She was rich before she got elected and gotten even richer since. She’a there to pass out the matches and watch the world burn

And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don't pass it despite having a majority.
Both sides aren't the same, but their choices produce the same results.
- There's always conveniently a cohort of Dems that vote against party lines. Every. Time. Then they can shrug and say "welp, we tried".
  Two sides of the same capitalist shit sandwich.
  
  This is because of red state Democrats like Manchin. Because every state gets two senators, there are more senators from red states than blue states. So Democrats have to capture more of the center to hey the majority in the Senate.
- And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
  Obamacare saved my life and was the product of immense effort at a time when the Dems were more conservative than they are today. Blue Dogs were wiped out in 2010 and 2012 because of that (correct) rage against them.
  You can say what the Dems managed to do was not enough - and it's not. Millions of people are not as lucky as me (though I suppose poverty is a strange kind of luck - poverty in a blue state, perhaps, more appropriately) and still suffer immensely under our utterly fucked healthcare system. But it's not the same result as doing nothing - or worse, handing control over to the GOP. Millions like me owe a greatly improved quality of life, or our very lives, to the reforms passed.
  If you have a plan to destroy the Dems and replace them all with left-wing progressives, and put demo charges on the base of our utterly fucked rat's nest of a government structure, I'm not here to tell you not to. But I am here to tell you that both sides are not the same for millions of disadvantaged demographics, even if the Dems are not enough for those selfsame demographics.
  
  That's really the one big thing I can think of that they did get through.
  It got like 80mil people health insurance which was great.
  It was still a huge compromise from the free universal healthcare that was the original goal.
  It's worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
  
  Wow a government that taxes you into oblivion for the War Pigs Somehow squeezes out a success. Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut. You don't have a mental process that thinks in terms of like a program. It could be argued that the United States is not even a democracy, given all of the methods that the rich make it so that our candidates that have our best interest are never able to be chosen. And it's a mixture of people not understanding or knowing history with a sprinkling of illiteracy. that we continue to march down the road, choosing the same two parties over and over again, and living in a vacuum. Stuck in time. Repeating the same mistakes. The Yankees in whole both Democrat and Republican are some variation of fascist and relative to the rest of the world the left and right paradigm is more varied. America is a imperialist empire that employs fascist as useful idiots to do the bidding of the business owners and the capitalist class. Democrats just give you the impression that you have a choice. It's a form of pacification. They themselves can see themselves as powerful and still have faith in the institution. And they themselves can also be alright people, but the ROLE or FUNCTION that they play in all this is just controlled opposition. The more you go down the rabbit hole of world history and American history, you start to see patterns, and really nothing has changed. Like fascism and racism and all these isms are just character traits of societies. But they are symptoms of exponential processes inside of containers that can no longer withstand the flux. That's how you can have Nazi Jews. Not all Jews are Nazis, but Israelis in general, as a collective, are fascistic in nature. And there shouldn't be really a debate about this, but a lot of people are ignorant about what it's like in Israel and how the laws are written. To be honest it's almost like me. I live in Yankee land. I'm not a fascist. I think I am a minority in my opinions, but there is still a significant amount of people that believe as I do. I mean I can relate to a israeli., who chooses not to be a fascist. It's such a fucking mess. And at the root of it all, is that people just don't take interest really in current affairs, in a serious, responsible manner. As a collective, we are very misinformed Population. The Yankee likes to make fun of North Korea, but I think of us like North Korea. Like a mixture of Disneyland and North Korea. You put those two together and I think that's what it's like to live in America. But if you never left the country, you don't realize the rest of the people around the world live better lives. And like, I wouldn't stay here if I had a choice now that I know more about the world. Like vote Democrat. No thank you. Buy the plain ticket, leave the country forever and never look back. That's where I'm at.
- Not the same results exactly, more that the dems enable the republicans by not pushing back, but both are far below the standard we should accept.
- Both sides aren't the same, but their choices produce the same results.
  The last few weeks are clear evidence of the opposite.
  
  Kids were still in cages during Biden. Prison slave population still highest history. Biden started the genocide and handed it over to trump. Biden deported more people than trump. Biden didn't feel like codifing roe. No min wage discussions whatsoever. No universal healthcare. Harris wanted a stronger border than trump and bragged about it. Half of the US can't even afford a 1 bedroom apartment under Biden and Trump alike.
  The two parties exist to appease their corporate donors. Nothing they do is in your interests.
  By the way, progressive measures passed in many states, even states that Trump won. People want progressive policy but neither party is willing to deliver. This is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism.

Anyone that has to hear “the two parties are not the same” is too stupid to change their tiny little mind and recognize it.
- Both parties are certainly not the same, however both parties have a lot of the same interests. The truth is establishment Democrats have very little personal reason to fight back against these insane right wing policies because they personally benefit from them; and that is the singular truth that makes our current political climate so dangerous.
  While they don't have any reason too fight back however, they also will not generally propose these policies. They just won't block them, so the solution is simple, prevent these policies from being proposed.
  However lots of people want to see the world in black and white and just want to conflate concepts like this with something that has no nuance to it like "both parties are the same" and blindly parrot that statement without stopping to analyze what it's really talking about and that's a huge issue since it disenfranchises more vulnerable people. I suspect blanket statements like this are likely a large contributor to the US' low voter participation, and i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them originated from foreign influence.
- I once got a death threat here on lemmy for suggesting that democrats were better than Republicans. That was interesting to say the least
  
  You’re not wrong. Apparently the truth stung someone pretty hard.
- They have to live with the fact they didn't vote as the next Hitler takes hold, it's also the only thing their stupid little minds can use to go on without acknowledging their conscience that wants them to yeet themselves out a window.
  
  They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold,
  They think Thalmann did nothing wrong, so if anything, they celebrate that they didn't vote as the next Hitler takes hold.
- Sure, one "party" is fascist and the other "party" is collaborators. Lots of differences to point out there.
  
  Yawn.
  Yet another goon who hasn't bothered looking up both party's voting history or criminal conviction history.
  Do your homework.

I'd argue that Nancy Pelosy is more representative of the dems than AOC.
- Well, I’d argue Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals, which most of us are not.
  I’d even argue is Nancy even a dem at this point she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
  
  she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
  And that perfectly represents the party as a whole.
  
  Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals
  Yes which is much closer to who the Dems are representing as a whole
  
  While Nancy's actual politics may be more centrists than dem, shes still one of the old guards that must go away for any actual change in the party.
  
  Sounds like you don't know what a Dem is
  
  You know "centrist" is not a political party, right? Fuckin kids these days, what are they teaching you...
  
  That's a funny take. The former speaker of the house who hand selected her replacement and was the leader of the Democratic caucus for more than a decade, and you're basically calling them a DINO
- The centers of both parties are functionally allies, the power structure of the Democratic party despises the kind of progressive politics AOC and Bernie do far more than the Republicans they claim to oppose even when those Republicans are literal out in the open fascists. Chuck Shumer is exhibit A and will become a historical touchstone for discussions about how neoliberalism always in the end sets up the conditions for fascism and then pathetically collapses in the crucial moment of resistance against fascism.
  Fuck that, both parties need to go, how many times has the Democratic party laughed in the face of Bernie as they blatantly undermined him?
  No, I treat Republicans as an existential threat, which means I also logically see the entrenched power structures of the Democrats that are happy to lose to Republicans rather than evolve, as an existential threat.
  Pelosi is a Democrat through and through, AOC and Bernie are Democrats because they have no choice in the status quo.
  
  The progressives need a build a new party before we destroy the existing ones.
  
  Weird how evolution takes time.

Yeah for sure AOC represent Democrats 😂😂😂. They are all behind her and sure will let her run for primary and win like they did with Bernie Sanders. LMAO
- For all their preaching about the sanctity of democracy they seem willing to do anything to avoid ever having a democratic primary process. The hypocrisy is stunning.
  
  How about repeatedly bringing up the flaws of First past the post voting every election cycle and then doing nothing to solve it in the blue states they control?
- Did Bernie not run in the primary? I remember him having his ass handed to him in my state.
  
  Does nobody remember Biden and Warren splitting the Bernie vote or
  
  I phone banked for him on his 2 most possible runs. He's way too old. AOC is the only half decent insider option in all of DC now.
  After a lifetime of voting for the lesser evil to make the ship sink a little slower, voting blue from Kerry to Harris in the general after primarying for the most leftwing candidate available, and feeling dirty every time, either they can give me a candidate that isn't actively choking as they fellate oligarch dick, or I'll watch it all burn from home.

MTG is far more welcome in her party than AOC is in hers.
The neoliberal DNC sees the Republicans as their esteemed opposition, as they are on the same take and have the same orders on Economic policy. They see spoilers like AOC, who are not on the corpo bribe train and for profound economic policy changes, as their enemy.
https://apnews.com/article/business-nancy-pelosi-congress-8685e82eb6d6e5b42413417f3d5d6775
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/04/15/nancy-pelosi-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-481704
The Democrats, almost all of them save a couple of spoilers, aren't the fascists themselves, but they've spent the last half century enabling the fascists. The Democrats don't care about entire industries of confidence schemes murdering Americans like our deathcare industry, they don't care about poor kids getting a good education, and they dont care about millions of our most betrayed neighbors dying in the streets. As the bad cop Fascists brag about how much they love the schaudenfreude of the pain those people are in, the good cop neoliberals shrug "free market forces, sorry! But I do affirm your identity, homeless dying/lifesaving healthcare denied person!"
That's why there really isn't hope until we collapse, hopefully by our hands in revolution and not by oligarch made climate change in a couple decades. Best, best, best, best case scenario, we have a real election in 3. 5 years and the Neoliberals gain power, do NOTHING to reign in the oligarchs, income inequity, or our sociopathic, murderous capital markets as they're gleefully paid not to do. Fascism is the takeover of the state to serve big capital's need for ever moar, and so the table will remain set to go back on the fascist march in just another 4 years.

AOC and Bernie should just start their own party and drive the establishment democrats out if business.
- I’m pushing for this every day. It’s our only way out of this.
  
  I agree. Both democrats and republicans pledge allegiance to capitalism above all else. This simply is not sustainable.
  This is also why education and historical literacy is so important. If more people knew how that America is only successful because of (majority) socialist policies like the New Deal and Great Society then there will be more widespread support for a reinvigoration of them.
  I think legacy media and centralized social media have dumbed down our populace to a point that they don’t even realize there is a way out. Everyone in the 99% stands to benefit from radical change.
  
  What percentage of the American population are progressive? Please provide a reliable source for your information. And please don't provide something nebulous and without meaning like "75% of Americans support random progressive policy". Those polls show aggrement with a policy, not a desire to change current policy.

AOC is not a good representation of the democrats. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom are better reps for the party. With the things AOC values, it feels she only identifies as Democrat in order to be on the Democrat ballot. AOC has been touring with Bernie. Bernie doesn’t even identify with the Democratic Party, but still came dangerously close (according to the Dems) to being the elect instead of Biden back in 2019-2020. The Democratic Party did not like that. The dems want to keep the working class down. The republicans want to squash the working class and more into submission.
I think the people that align with the Democratic Party were feeling a lot of this between late 2019 - mid 2020.
- Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom
  Obama being a proponent of universal healthcare back in 2008, Biden a supporter of the Green New Deal, and Newsom part of a push for universal healthcare in Cali?
  I don't mean to say that any of this is enough. I don't mean to say that the Dems aren't dragging their fucking feet and 10 years too late on every goddamn issue; I'm not saying that the system is working or that we don't need a new system.
  But anyone who says that the two parties are the same or indistinguishable in terms of results or ideals is selling a crock of fascist-flavored shit. Apathy and non-participation benefits conservatives.
  
  You're screaming into the void here on Lemmy. All we have are tankies and teenagers that want Amazon two-day shipping on their "Revolution^TM" and are throwing a crying temper tantrum that the majority of the American public don't agree with them.
  So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
  The tankies are the toddler throwing a tantrum on the floor of a toy store. The Dems are their mom who isn't buying them the Xbox game they want and the Republicans are the store owners hiking up the price of the game to make it unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy. Their little baby brains can only think to whine and cry and blame their mom because they have no understanding of the reality behind, well.. anything really.
  
  You're trying to talk sense to people of an extremist 'comply or die' style ideology here. Proper leftists have empathy enough for the well-being of their fellow humans and the planet we live on to recognize that simply burning everything to the ground benefits nobody. What we have in this place for the most part are keyboard commandos who wouldn't have the first clue what to do in the event of a full societical collapse.

The parties are not the same, but they're both brands owned by conservatives.

These are wildly opposite and anyone who says AOC isn't a real representation of DNC must also find a more GOP aligned member, like Mike Johnson or Steve Scalise. They are despicable but not all-caps-tweets kind of despicable.
- AOC is the only representation of the DNC. Hope she unseats Schumer, becomes leader of the democratic party, and down the line runs for President. She will be the best president America have had.
  I do not hope she runs for President next time though, as my thoughts of Americans are very low, and i believe them to be too bigoted to vote for her yet. yet.

In a vacuum like this using the best and worst (dumbest?) example from each party.
But both parties as a whole serve the interest of capital. Their methods might be different. Their indirect/direct use of violence might be different. But they serve the same people with the same interest. AOC and Bernie are even saying that now. They've been criticizing the democratic party at all of their events.
Can the liberals stop pretending we can vote our way out of facism and please fucking join us on the left. Fucking please.
Fascism is here. Due process is gone. First amendment is gone. If you're waiting to vote again you're no different than someone in Russia thinking they can vote Putin out of power.
Grab a pitchfork (metaphorically speaking) and get organized.
Join PSL or DSA or anyone in your area resisting ICE. Now. Do it now.
Edit: For every downvote please comment with a different organization resisting ICE and organizing locally. Because if it's just criticism of the groups that ARE resisting it's not helping. Give people an alternative. I would LOVE people just listing groups that are resisting ICE in your area or nationally. Because that's all I want.
- Join PSL
  Ah yes, "Palestinian genocide is bad but Ukrainian genocide is good"
  
  Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
  I don't agree with Anarchist groups politically. But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the "politically pure" form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a "holier than thou" fence of Liberalism.
  I don't agree with PSL or DSA on everything. But what I do agree with is resisting ICE and fascism.
  Are you doing something? Because maybe just talk to someone from PSL or DSA and actually just get info from the actual organizer's. Not some sweaty dude on Twitter.
  Just go talk to someone. But don't just lie about an entire organization of people in a reddit comment and feel ok with watching more and more people getting black bagged.
  I don't care if it's PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
  When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
  
  That's exactly the problem. I hate the Democrats as much as the Republicans, but the DSA is so full of tankies I want nothing to do with them either. There is literally no party in this country for people like me.

AOC deserves criticism for voting to prevent the rail union strikes. Quite insufficient IMO. Just because someone is worse does not make you fit for public office.
Have higher standards. If we let the republicans set the bar we will be six feet under in no time.
- Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
  
  The existence of the putrid does not make trash good

I'm so fucking tired of this argument.
It's the same fucking bullshit loop every goddamned time. Somebody will say that the two parties are "the same" clearly meaning "the same in [this] particular sense, and then the pedantic assholes will all come swooping in and start nattering on about how that's completely wrong because they're not absolutely 100% identical.
Here's a fucking news flash for all you binaristic pinheads - there are more than two possibilities. We aren't just limited to "they're 100% the same" and "they're not the same at all." It's not only possible but certain fact that they ARE the same in many, many ways, and the fact that they're not the same in ALL ways doesn't change that.
Anyone who can't envision more than two diametrically opposed possibilities is a fucking moron, and I'm sick and tired of this argument being driven by fucking morons.
- Agreed.
  The notion of "both sides are the same" is a leftist critique that points out how both parties were long ago bought out and captured by special interests. The people hammering on this idea are especially critical at how, during the 2024 election, when the Democratic establishment was faced with a choice between bowing down to Israel and mitigating full-blown fascism, they chose to bow down to to Israel, commit genocide, and embarrassingly hand yet another win to Trump. All for them sweet AIPAC dollars.
  Sure, AOC, the democrat's shining star of progressivism, has different policy positions than MTG, of the right's most outward and frothing fascists, but talk about a low bar... It's akin to saying "how can you say both parties are the exact same when one has a donkey mascot and one has an elephant? A donkey is not the same as an elephant - check and mate, tankie"
  
  Weaselly bullshit.
  "Both sides are the same" isn't some fucking Leftist code that actually means some other thing. You meant what you goddamn said.
- If they are "the same in this particular sense" then use that language instead. In no other context do people use the phrase "these are the same" meaning "these have something in common." I wouldn't defend the phrase "Galas and Fijis are the same" because of their similarities any more or less than if I were to compare apples and oranges. I'd say they're both apples or they're both fruit or any number of specific descriptors that they actually share.
  It seems to me that if people are using this language as you suggest then they should communicate more clearly, or, more likely, this isn't what they mean.
- Example:
  "Republicans are corrupt weasels."
  "Democrats are the same."
  I see only three options there. Either:
  You understand and admit that they mean "the same" in the sense of "also corrupt weasels."
  You're a liar
  You're a moron.
- I think it's also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
  Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
  But because things aren't bad for them it's not a problem.
  The ole "First They Came" in action.
  
  It can be - certainly.
  One of the basic dynamics of partisan politics, and one of the main reasons that parties decline, is that people wear a party label as a substitute for more meaningful action.
  In this case, people who want to project an image of progressivism without actually doing anything practical to advance the cause adopt (or adopted - more so in the past) the "Democrat" label as a way to signal their progressivism. The fact that they wear the label is then folded into their self -image - they can be proud that they're progressive, because after all, they're Democrats, which proves it.
  One problem though is that that only works as long as the Democrats are seen to be progressive. If they're no longer seen that way, then by extension the party faithful are themselves no longer progressive either.
  So effectively, a criticism of the party is a criticism of the individual, so they have a vested interest in defending the party from criticism.
  
  Agreed. Their progressive Renaissance is always just one presidency away, and they will perpetually sacrifice however many Palestinians it takes to bide themselves time.
  In other words, they will keep throwing bodies into the blood machine that is the American political experiment in hopes of a progressive renewal that will never happen. There is no red line for them - that is, a point where they'd consider "damn, we are fucking shit up heavy for the whole world, and we have a duty to tear ourselves down".
  
  I think it’s also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
  lol. lmao.
  Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
  Surprisingly, nowhere in history have things gotten better by refusing to do the bare minimum of preventing authoritarians from coming into power because you want to cosplay revolution, and then failing to even cosplay revolution after the authoritarians come in.
- Lord.

These people are co-workers and collaborators. That's why we don't have universal healthcare or a green new deal. It's why we have fascism.

Both are capitalists and therefore both are, at their cores, against long lasting and realistic improvements for working class people.
They both deserve prison.
- "AOC deserves prison for being a capitalist" is up there with "Bernie is controlled opposition" for "Most insane yet unsurprising things I've heard on Lemmy"
  
  All lot of "No true Scotsman" going on in this comment section, for sure