Linux is too hard

RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.
I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I'm having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.
Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.
- The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn't there.
  
  just google it and the google is just a reddit post that says [deleted]
  
  Those cases where the users didn't WTFM
  
  It's the same way you gotta ask if they turned it off and on again. Too many don't even look up the manual, now yes. Some hostility is just plain hostility, but the phrase is there for a good reason.
  
  Git gud
  /s
- Plus I don't want to spend 30 minutes to wade through pages of documentation for a 5-word command that makes my speakers work.
- Aaaand why is that? It's hard to read because..?
  We need individuals like you to help it out. It's like wikipedia
  
  It's hard to read because people lack background knowledge. Man pages were horrible for my first 15 years or so.
  Once you have the skills that you hardly need to read them they're fine.
  That's why everyone wants to look it up on stack exchange, they want the answer, not an unending series of lessons
  
  They are hard to read because they are written to explain concepts to people who already understand them. Handy if you just need them for reference. Useless if you are trying to learn. Which is why RTFM is often bad advice
  
  It's hard to read because it's a manual made for technical users.
  On Linux most of the software is made by freelance developers who often forget that all users are not technical and even if they are they don't want to be forced to interact with technical stuff. For the same reason I don't want to daily-drive gentoo, sometimes I don't want to read the manual.
  I happen to be a contributor on multiple FOSS project and most didn't have a docs directory in their repo or website, let alone an user guide. That's fine for a CLI program to rely on wiki/manuals but graphical apps should have a user guide on their website. Working on documentation is a thankless job in FOSS spaces.
- Then people need to be taught how to read better. Not Linux's fault the education system was dismantled over the years.
  
  What an arrogant comment 😂

I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid... That's what "RTFM" sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.
- Even technical folks aren't huge fans of RTFM.
  If I'm doing something incredibly interesting, and I'm asking for help, I should RTFM.
  If I'm doing something routine, we can (and usually do, now), make it simple enough not to need a manual.
- Make Local LUGs Great Again.
  
  My brain had to work hard to pull that acronym from the depths lol.
- These days, they could even just ATFAI (like Ask The Fucking AI) and would arrive at desired destination.
  The thing that prevents adoption is the human fear of change.
  
  Hot take among what often seems to be an "AI is the devil!" crowd.
- I think the troll users are getting old and grey at this point. People people are willing to help.
- I understand the impetus behind RTFM - It happens when the user failed to do basic troubleshooting and expects others to do their thinking. Being blown off doesn't feel great, but other people's time is valuable, and in the end your system is your own responsibility.

I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.
- Microsoft saw a world
  That's not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.
  Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that's before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don't want to.
  Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.
  Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it's not unwarranted.
  Nobody has ever been fired for ordering ~~SAP~~ Microsoft, right?
  
  Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done. Microsoft has powerful software and a big ecosystem around it.
  Windows is really good for administrating lots of workstations for large organizations for example.
  
  It is best to try and keep Geopolitics out of software
  You can't get rid of Windows as it is deeply entrenched and heavily depended on.
- This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don't think anyone claiming that it's not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.
  Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we'll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.
- This is exactly how I felt when I switched to Linux and it "clicked".
  This is what personal computers were supposed to always be like before Capitalism ruined it for everyone.
- That just depends on what you want to do
  If you’re a tinker on Linux then you will be on Windows
  If you’re the lowest common denominator on Windows then you will be on Linux
  Linux just makes it easier for the user
- It is fun to talk to older people who have never used anything but DOS/Windows
  They insist that they need a GUI as they keep trying to use CLI tools like it is 1980.
- I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
  Yes, when we install Linux on something that didn't ship with Linux installed.
  But in an apples to apples scenario - pre-installed OS provided by the manufacturer, it's Windows that comes with more bullshit.
  And there are (finally!) plenty of options to buy a pre-installed Linux computer, today.
  It's a tiny fraction as many as pre-installed Windows or Mac, of course. But it's still plenty. There's a half dozen companies with solid reputations and hardware specialties, and I only need one.
- Nothing wrong you say. Sure, noooothing can go wrong with this approach (I am looking at climate changes, fucking plastic in living organisms, wars not stopping even for a day, idiots in positions of power). Cool story bro, does not work

Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.
From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn't care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn't care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.
This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you're going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.
The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.
- I switched to Linux mint because I don't want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won't anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I'm as happy as a clam in shit.
  An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.
  
  Linux Mint is a great distro, and I'm happy it works for you.
  In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don't care much for the terminal - but you made it through.
  The people that didn't make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.
  P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn't completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.
- This means that there's plenty of room for companies to sell curated lists of apps that just magically work. I would buy the shit out of that for a work machine that just needs to work, no matter what. I'd also pay for something like that for my mom or my fiancé neither of them are particularly tech interested but will happily use something if it works.
  
  This is actually a really deep rabbit-hole. To avoid typing a novel, I'm going to cut out a lot of nuance.
  Windows is installed by default on machines. Since people do not change defaults (many studies have been done on this), this is checkmate. As long as this is true, Linux will not have a major (20%+) market share.
  So this has to start from the OEM. Several Linux OEMs exist (i.e Tuxedo Computers, System76, Framework) but they cannot compete with the Microsoft network. Those who are interested in Linux, but are not tech savvy, really really really should buy their device from a Linux OEM.
  Driver issues are near non-existent on Linux OEM hardware. So software is the next step; and let me tell you, developing for Linux is rough. There are 2 window servers, 2 graphic stacks, 2 desktop environments, 2 coding standards, 2 C libraries,... you get the point. A lot of this can be abstracted, but it takes genuine work to do - and may be obsoleted in a month; meaning no company will do this.
  All to say, creating "magically working" apps - even with a lot of monetary support - is a herculean task. Even Valve (who is FLUSHED with cash) gave up and just decided to make their own distro (SteamOS).
  A lot of issues also just require personal tweaks due to open-source software being extraordinarily bad at setting sane defaults. With something like Windows, you can hire people to make this better. Who do you hire to fix the defaults for 300 independent projects? And will the devs even listen to them?
  I could keep going, but you get the point, the buck is going to have to stop at the user for a lot of things.
  The best solution (in my opinion) is to have specialized distros and have people choose from them. Want to game? SteamOS. Want to dev? Fedora. Want to surf the web? Linux Mint. Creating, and more importantly accurately listing, specialized distros will make lives easier. Leave the defaults to the devs, just download the "vibe" you want.
  
  That is exactly what Linux distributions are, not?
  Like, if you buy e.g. Tuxedo you have Linux and essential apps preinstalled, because it comes with your distro of choice out of box.
- I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
  And that was before the SteamDeck too.
- My wife is on NixOS, because she wanted a system that would be exactly the same if it died. She doesn't know Linux from Mac or Windows; She doesn't care about privacy or where apps come from, only that it operates the exact same everyday. (And Windows could not satisfy this requirement)
  
  A pain point I've seen with NixOS for new users is the focus on editing files — how easy is it for her to install applications that way?
- I agree with you in general, but there are people out there making specific distros with that sort of stuff in mind too. Ublue's OSs is pretty much that: "just use it and leave the tinkering to us". And I would argue if you're not a developer doing advanced stuff, those work just as smoothly as windows does.
  
  Agreed. There are many facets to this problem, so it's difficult to get in one post, so I'll try to reconcile the main points.
  The core of what I'm trying to say, is don't kill Linux trying to become Windows. Linux is great because it diverse, but it also has difficulties because of this. We should not change (nor destroy) the ecosystem for people who do not care to understand it.
  That being said, we can also make it easier for people who do care and cooperate to make it over. But if we do this we, as Linux users, have to look at this from the right lens. The question is not "Linux users, what do you find difficult?"; this is survivorship bias. The question is "Windows users, why can't you get Linux on your machine?". From this framing, the real issues become a lot more apparent:
  Not savvy enough to set up USB stick
  Driver, and other hardware, issues
  Programs needed for work, or general daily usage, are unavailable
  Too much tinkering required (this is related to, but not the same as RTFM and CLI)
  The first two points can be solved by purchasing a machine from a Linux OEM (i.e System76). If this is not possible, then you are going to have to do research; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
  AI has a good and valid use-case here, as it can significantly ease this process (even if it's only right 60% of the time).
  Linux may not have an alternative for your preferred programs; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
  Developers should follow open guidelines (i.e POSIX). If they refuse to, there is nothing Linux can (nor should) do about it.
  The last point can be solved by distro choice, we completely agree here. The problem is finding said distro, which is difficult. For example, I've never heard of Ublue until your post. I appreciate distros that handle defaults and don't push breaking changes. The community can make this better by having a dedicated website (with a decision tree) for choosing a distro, but this has its own set of issues.
  No matter, the responsibility falls on the user to pick the right distro; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
- Indeed, we should not. Thank you for saying this
- Kinda insightful, as someone who loves UX

Windows is to Linux what McDonald's is to cooking your own food.
- More like a restaurant that has Korean BBQ / hot pot on the menu. Most meals are completely prepared, but for some you need to do a small part yourself.
  
  You know what, I like this one. And just like KBBQ/hot pot, there's gonna be people who ask "what's the point of going to a restaurant if they make you cook it yourself?" And you know what I say to those people?
  You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that - also, more hot pot for me!
- Linux is going to cook your own food, then realising that you don't have half the ingredients, so you either have the choice of going to the shop where all the food is labelled in Swahili, and there's no pictures of what's in the packages, and a lot of the people who shop there are kinda stuck up and look down at you for not speaking Swahili, and by the time you've gone round the shop three times and asked for help and you're still not sure what you've got in the trolley but you buy it anyway and then you get home and you've got some of the stuff for dinner but you're still missing some essential ingredients OR going to McDonald's and getting everything on the menu but Ronald follows you home.
  
  So that's what cooking feels like for people who never cooked before.
- 10/10 analogy
- Honestly that's a pretty good comparison

I'm probably gonna get hated on for this but here's my story:
About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.
I'd read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.
None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I'll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn't play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.
Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I'd spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.
So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.
I hate that I'm still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn't work on Windows , it's usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn't work on Linux it's a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux's file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.
Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That's why everyone uses Windows.
- Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.
  Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.
  If the laptop manufacturers aren't advertising Linux support, it's up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.
  You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.
  With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.
  For new hardware, it's still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.
  This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.
  
  Yeh, I'd come to that conclusion myself. The laptop I bought was a 2023 lenovo legion 9i which is have discovered is not a particularly popular model but shares a lot of it's DNA with the far more popular 7i. So I figured most of the software and fixes would be cross-compatible. Turns out that I was wrong. I'm not giving up hope yet, and I'm not gonna get rid of the laptop anytime soon. Maybe they'll be a new kernal that come out which fix the issues I've been having.
- This is much less a Linux problem and much more a communuty one. We really need a semi-centralized place to get recent linux info and a nice guide on linux specific knowlage for beginners, but then people will cry needing to learn what wayland/x11 and such are will turn people away. Whoever was telling you windows games 10-15% faster were fucking dumbasses, I have zero problem running any game I want on my machine but the preformace has been exactly the same as windows (which I still consider a win for linux)
  The next big problem is people going "We don't need gaming distros" when those gaming distros are made to solve this exact problem. If you haven't already try out Bazzite or Nobara and it might "just work" (no promises tho). But a distro like Mint/Pop/Debian are going to have a lot of missing drivers/package updates for the latest hardware, Fedora needs relatively a lot of post-install tinkering to get things working since they only ship opensource packages by default, Garuda is not ment for beginners and uses a more unstable kernal for preformance, but you still need to tinker with drivers. Bazzite and Nobara are the two big distros that aim to "just work" out of the box and even re-package some software with the latest fixes. And incase you don't like the look of them, you can install whatever theme over KDE Plasma you want
  Ofc I get if your tired of hearing "just install this distro instead" but a lot of advice is coming from others who also don't actually know whats going on under the surface, and sometimes your hardware just isn't supportes (not a linux issue but a manufacturer one). And if your at the point where using windows for gaming works and thats enough for you, nothin wrong with just using windows
- I have similar experiences. I converted my surface laptop to linux and overall I'm happy that I did, but games that ran fine on windows now are unplayable because I can't get it to work properly, neither with wine, unbottled nor proton.
  I still have a W10 gaming pc and I planned on converting it to linux with pop os being the frontrunner, but I will keep it on dual boot with the fallback scenario of just going with W11. Linux is not and might never be ready for mass adoption because it is simply too reliant on volunteers, forums and self-troubleshooting for that.
  Microsoft and Apple provide OS'es that are thoroughly tested and validated with firmware and drivers that are specifically written for them by people whose job it is to do that. It might not always be perfect, but it usually does what it needs to do right away.
  
  Oh interesting! What model surface do you have? I have a surface pro which I was considering converting (before the above nightmare) but have read that MS have made it super difficult for anything later than a 7 and I have an 8.
- Wait, what brand/model laptop did you get?
  
  A lenovo legion 9i
- Well, that sounds like issues with your specific hardware, because that's definitely not the usual Linux experience.
  Tip for next time: find some distro that has up to date kernel. Ubuntu, Mint and Debian are definitely not good if you have very recent hardware, they stay on old kernels for quite a long time. And drivers are in the kernel.
  I have to disagree about Windows being easier, but that's fairly subjective. What's 100% objective is that it's definitely not the reason everyone uses Windows, the reason is much simpler: it came with their machine.
  Anyway, I recommend Nobara for gaming - it's basically Fedora, but preconfigured for gaming and general normal use.
  
  Thanks, I'll give it a whirl and see how I get on.
- To be fair, you most likely have nvidia in your PC.
  As I see it, the distos you tried ether have a gui to install those proprietary drivers, but are on old kernel or no GUI to install them, but a recent kernel.
  Installing nvidia drivers on endeavourOS is very simple and you always get the newest fixes after writing “yay” into console.
  Installing apps is as easy as “yay [desired app]” and then choose out of the list. (Just don’t take the “-git” versions but the “-bin” versions 🤭)
  After that, install steam out of multilib and make sure to pick the right vulkan package (based on GPU driver in use)
  All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux, because nvidia is not caring enough about Linux yet.
  Only way to fix that is adoption.
  
  All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux,
  I installed mint, opened the driver manager, picked the latest NVIDIA driver and it just worked. No idea what everybody is talking about ...
  Granted I'm on an old 1080ti, so maybe that's it ...
  
  Thanks this is very helpful. I was steering clear of the more terminal heavy distros as tbh I find the terminal a bit daunting as a noob. I'll give it a go tho.
  
  Even Nvidia drivers have come a long way recently. I used to always have a windows setup and used it more than Linux whenever I was off work, but this year I was finally confident enough on Linux to ditch it. I have Nvidia gpus on all my PCs, with both Intel and AMD cpus, and they are all working perfectly fine with multiple 4k screens.
  So far there were only two games I was unable to play on Linux - Demoncrawl and Inzoi. And the second is filled with reports saying it works ootb for other Linux users, so if I had tried to tinker I could probably get it to work. (I haven't had to tinker with anything else tho).
- You sound like a Windows power user and of course linux will be harder because you are not used to it.
  I had a simmilar first months until I was used to linux. Now I find many things much more convinient in Linux.
  And yes there is hardware that works in windows but not in linux like there is hardware that wont work in macos. But over time you will only buy stuff that is compatible and you wont think about it anymore.
  Thats why I recommend dual booting at the start because sometimes you need to get shit done without trying to learn the new way and so you don't get burnt out. But if you keep at it you will start to use windows less and less.

Literally had a former co-worker who has taught computer science classes at universities, ran his own PC repair business, and avoids the command line like the plague. Says it feels ancient.
If you're under 30 and read this and have been on the fence about getting good with computers... Just setup a Linux VM and play around with the terminal. You'll be leagues beyond so many active professionals it's scary.
- It’s okay to have a preference. In my. 20+ years with Linux, I’ve coded with and for it, did low level embedded development with it, used it at home for school and entertainment, used for amateur photography, even managed a small server for a startup.
  I still would rather use a GUI, because I have not specialized in most of the tasks. It’s less powerful, but it’s just more intuitive. It’s less portable between DEs, but it’s easier. And if your only doing that once in a blue moon, it’s more than enough.
  
  It's absolutely fine to prefer a GUI. At a professional level it is not fine to not understand what is happening beneath the hood.
  Full stop.
  If you don't know how to use TCP dump, I don't want you using wireshark on my dime.

Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
Windows used to be easy. Now, it's so obscure and locked down that only Microsoft can maintain your computer. And they maintain it for their own benefit, at your expense, with mandatory ads and lockouts.
- I disagree about how it used to be easy. And agree with everything else.
  Ive used Windows since the 3.1 days (MSDOS as well?). Its never been "easy". You just learn the magic spells on how to fix a printer, get the right drivers installed in JUST the right way, or which hardware magically doesn't work for some reason and avoid it.
  With Linux, at least we get good logs most of the time.
  
  i remember my first family pc was a tandy sensation which had it's own built in ui - winmate - because windows 3.1 program manager was so frustrating.
  
  As a kid using XP, never had a single issue.

I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn't see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG'd the issue, but I couldn't find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I've spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I'm making is, Linux isn't really that hard to learn, it's just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧
- Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there's no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!
- 🧐never had an linux app not working because it was “not designed for my desktop environment” I am confused, I was sure all Linux app run on all window manager / desktop environment 🤔
  Are you sure?
  
  Most KDE apps will run on Gnome and vice-versa, but they might not run particularly well under those conditions.
  I used to run into issues with this all the time. Recently, I find, for poplar apps, there's always a version built for my chosen desktop environment.
  Of course, I'm not very picky, anymore: Libre-this, Open-that, Free-Whatever. I usually find the one that comes up in the app search is good enough for what I'm doing.
- Ummm... Both gnome and kde apps should work on any desktop environment
  
  My guess is that they are using a KDE distro that doesn't properly package gnome stuff
  That's just a guess though

I was on a reddit thread the other day which was about Microsoft ending the support for Windows 10. Naturally, I thought people would be boasting about Linux in that thread, but nope, people just want to keep using windows 10 or want Steam to release SteamOS. This was the PC Gaming sub too.
- I mean if people move to steamOS how is that not a win?
  
  That is a win. I was just surprised to not see anyone just say any of the existing distros, you know, multiple solutions that already exist.
- I finally switched to Linux, while Linux itself is just as easy to use as Windows, actually installing Linux can be a nightmare. When setup works properly its no harder than windows, the other 95% of the time its about chasing down an easily solved problem but you have to figure out which easily solved problem it is.
  
  I install Linux on many machines each year, and I can't even remember the last time I had a problematic installation. Your experience sounds quite unusual. Are you using some obscure distro?
  
  You described installing old windows, before update took care of drivers.
- Strange, I was also on a thread about ending support, and I found (and upvoted) tons of comments about switching to Linux. Must have been from different communities.
- Years ago this is exactly what happened with Windows XP. I still see the odd one hanging around somehow. I suspect this will be very similar.

One thing I have noticed a lot of lately is that people just don't want to have to fucking read at all anymore and it kind of is wrecking my faith in humanity. Asking people to read isn't a big ask.
- “I feel like we are nearing the end of times. We humans are losing faith in ourselves.”
  Hayao Miyazaki
- It’s not just reading, people don’t want to mentally engage with things. There are people who would rather read movie reviews than go watch a movie and form their own opinion on it.
  Engaging with material will always require something of the audience. We can try to make things as accessible and easy to understand as possible, but that doesn’t “solve” the problem, it just lowers the bar. Lowering the bar isn’t bad, but it seems like the wrong strategy for the current era. I think a better strategy is attempting to foster and enthusiastic community at a local level. Get together with friends on the weekends and mess around with stuff in person, talk about it.
  
  Every moment of our lives is filled with stimulation.
  Every moment we aren't forced to focus we disassociate to recover from the constant never ending focus.
  We are Great Apes, huge fucking mammals, how do other huge apes spend their time? Literally napping and eating for most of the day. If you forced a fucking gorilla to work a 9-5 they would get zoochosis and all their hair would fall out and they would get depressed and die.
  Our bodies and minds aren't evolved enough to handle this rapidly complicating society, it's stressing us out to the point where we lash out at each other and burn out.
  Our society is to blame for all of the malbehavors.
  
  We can try to make things as accessible and easy to understand as possible
  That's where we're at now with social media. Things are super accessible, but shallow and often based on pure emotional appeal.
- Asking people to read isn't a big ask.
  Yes, but asking them to read a large, technical manual that's gonna put them several hours and multiple pages in for a single concept is.

The work windows did to make early windows intuitive really paid off. I was able to figure a lot out as a kid so I could play snake and minesweeper etc. Leaning into that will onboard new users, and that's why mint is so successful
- Random fact: The guy that did the hook a Macklemore's thrift shop was partially responsible for that.

Make the manual super short, pretty, interactive, unobtrusive and spread it around the system contextually. Then users might “read” it.
- Sounds like a great plan! The arch wiki is waiting for your help ❤️❤️❤️ looking forward to seeing a new take on the manuals 🥰
  
  They’re basically describing a good GUI.

Windows is not as hard as Linux. You're just being silly at this point. I'm not saying Windows is better, but it is engineered from the ground up to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
Case in point, installing a program on Windows? Double click the exe and you're done. On Linux? It can be that simple but usually is much more involved.
- Double click the exe, pending update blocks the installer, reboot, click the exe, go through a wizard that ask questions you don't know the answer to (usually defaults are ok though), be prompted for admin password, get blocked by corporate policies, fill out the IT ticket, have them remote to your box and install, reboot, find the program in the menu, run it, have it blocked by HBSS, put in ticket for that, update antivirus, reboot, manually pull group policy updates, reboot, more updates install, reboot, run the program.
  Obviously silly, but also real.
  
  It took me more time to read your post than to install a program.
  
  Not relevant when you own the machine.
  
  Also, in Windows when you finally do run the program it just hangs with "Not responding".
- It depends on what you are doing
  As it turns out, there are a lot of tools that work best on Linux because they were intended to be used on a Linux system. Same goes for Windows stuff that is meant to be run on Windows. You can make it work but for the most polished experience it is best to stick with something well supported.
- Yes. After using Linux for servers and lower end machines I switched to mint on my main desktop a week ago. And while I'm quite pleased, it was not a seamless experience. I had to use a script that fixes my Bluetooth headset that connected but wasn't showing up as an audio device when reconnecting, and apt sometimes having very out of date packages that just don't work anymore. I love Linux but i really find it frustrating that many Linux users just seem a bit out of touch, don't see that even some basics sometimes need weird fixes and that windows is just better at working out of the box. I really want Linux to get there but tbh i don't see that happening in the near future.
- Honestly after using Linux for a while I greatly prefer to just enter one command in my terminal to install something like a CPU monitoring tool or a disk space analyzer. All in all I don't think Linux is any harder vs windows, it's just different and most people are used to working with Windows so Linux is "hard". Like if there's an issue with a program you just run it from terminal and it'll tell you exactly what's wrong usually, whereas on Windows I have to google these obscure error logs from eventvwr.
  
  The fact that you're capable of using a terminal or Googling error logs puts you in the top 10% of computer users. You do not understand just how dumb the average person is.
- That's true! I just remember helping my troubleshoot his issues recently and it was a nightmare going into the registry and editing stuff, the UX is so bad!
  I love when Linux gets complex because it makes sense. When Windows gets complex with Powershell, or any other horrible stuff in this OS, I just wish it wouldn't lol.
  Again, still not the norm. But I pray for all the nontechnical gen-z players of Valorant when something bad happens on their PC lol

Sorry, I love Linux and wish everybody was on it but no way is Windows “just as hard”. Maybe if you want to look behind the curtain and start tinkering Linux is easier but on the face of it I’d say Linux is somewhere around early Windows XP when it comes to usability for a normal person.
- I’d say Linux is somewhere around early Windows XP when it comes to usability for a normal person.
  I was confused until it struck me that maybe you don't consider Windows XP the peak of operating system user interface design.
  I'll admit, Vista really messed with my perspective.
- If you had to install Windows every time you bought a PC you'd think that Linux and Windows are comparable. That is the issue, tbh. It's not the RTFM; its because the average PC user had NEVER NEEDED to install an OS. Windows just comes preinstalled on 99% of consumer PCs! For the "year of Linux" to be a reality, there needs to be an easy way to get a retail PC with Linux preinstalled. When I show my Windows-only users my Linux laptop, how quickly it boots up, how many apps I have installed, how easy it is to install and update apps, etc., most say: "Oh wow! I can use this". But when I demonstrate having to choose the boot loader, partition setup, etc., they say, "Nah! I'll just go buy a laptop with Windows!"
  
  Tech nerds have a really hard time understanding technophobia.
  Yes everyone can use Linux if they just jump through the right hoops.
  The average person does not ever want to jump through a single hoop EVER when it comes to learning a new tech.
  Either it works or it isn't worth the time/hassle to learn an entire world of information that is required to use different computers to the extent that linux nerds do.
  
  Windows install is way simpler than that. Thing is, so is Linux with most major distros, unless of course you're doing something more advanced. It sounds like you're being way more technical than you need to, and it's scaring people off.
- No, tbh it is.
  The thing is that windows has "become the standard"
  Where options are, how to fix any problems? You learn windows like you learn a language. German and danish isn't too different, but if you grew up with danish it's going to be harder to learn german.
- i picked up linux mint in a weekend; it was incredibly easy to come over from windows.
- Windows XP? So then Linux is as usable as the best version of windows.
- Not even close. Most hardware issues I had were with Windows. Additionally, that thing gets slow over time, no matter what you do. If you use it often, it'll get to an unusable state in a year or two. And you can't do anything about it except fresh reinstall. It spies on you so much even Google could learn from them. And nowadays it even has ads. You pay for the OS and then you still have ads, classy. And as a bonus, all the spying and ads are so unoptimised that they make your computer slower.

I know some of the issue is the manuals themselves are out of date. Ive literally had to have something explained to me via the developers Discord. I hate going to a projects Discord in order to find out crucial info.
Sometimes manuals are in 5 different places so you don't know what applies to your specific system.
I usually try and improve the manuals when I do come across this with a quick PR, when I have time.
- Lol or one of an app's dependencies gets an update, but it takes 2 weeks for the updated flatpak app to be downloadable.

I’ve used a Mac since forever. But I started using FOSS apps. Then I created a Hackintosh, until it borked. Then I installed ZorinOS and almost didn’t need to fix the Hackintosh. I did fix it, but Zorin convinced me that Linux is legit and I’m going all in on it.
- Did you develop a desire to flood silicon valley while escaping via blimp after you started using Zorin? Asking for a friend.
  
  Hmm…by blimp, you say? 🤔

Windows has the excuse of being preinstalled everywhere. It makes it very hard to break system or to use the system in a way not blessed by Microsoft.
Linux is fairly easy to learn and gives you lots and lots of power.
- It looks like everyone always forget about Chromebooks or kind of ignore them...
  
  I super hate Chromebooks. My mom gave my kid one and it's ruining my life. I should have just binned it and gotten him a real laptop with mint or ubermix.
  He has a computer now with ubermix, but it's an uphill battle.
  
  I like Chromebooks
  I would use one if it wasn't a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
  
  I like Chromebooks
  I would use one if it wasn't a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible

People don't have the time/will to research alternatives, that's why most of us follow trends. It's the old mantra "if is good enough for him...", and honestly, i don't feel to blame anyone. Computers by now are a necessary tool and people want an easy "switch an play" solution to use it.

Linux isn't hard anymore because I have ChatGPT to come up with all the command lines for me. And they work 60% of the time!

RTFM is great when it covers the problem you're having, but I've seen multiple times in various forums, when the problem isn't covered by the manual or the solution isn't immediately obvious, the user is just ignored entirely. Some people have a really weird "linux doesn't have any issues, its the user's fault" attitude.
- Last year I got told to RTFM and was linked to a documentation page that said
  STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION
  Which was very helpful

One of my main problems with Linux is the obsessive amount of text things have to learn or understand it, I have to sig around online for someone who doesn't say rtfm because the manual is extremely long and it's usually a pretty small easy problem. Or I find someone who has the problem and no response or a response that doesn't work in the current version. It took me a couple of days to setup my home Linux entertainment system because of these reasons.
Accessibility matters,it's good to have proper documentation and it also good to make it accessible to everyone and not just the hardcore Linux people.
One of the things I had problems with is with my laptop turning off my external display with the lid was closed, took me a couple of days to find it was in some text file in systemd instead of idk in the power settings?
Linux is hard and it's not user friendly. But better then Windows for me at least, mainly because Linux has more accessibility options now then windows.

Feels like this implies that software is broadly maintained by its general user base when that's simply not how it is outside of really niche projects. Most FOSS software is maintained by a dedicated few who are but a tiny fraction of the user base and are far from being your "average user".
- FOSS software needs to be maintained by the user base to survive. Not enough people contributing is a big problem for many, if not most, open source projects, including the big names. If not enough people care enough to learn, the project dies out and disappears.
  
  contributions are all time high and it will only get more. While we are in a war for foss software remember that open source didn't really even exist 40+ years ago

I mean, this is why I have been using Mac since 1984. It's not hard and it pretty much just gets out of the way and lets you do stuff. (Caveat: Gaming. It really doesn't let you do gaming without jumping through a number of hoops.)
The fact Time Machine immediately hassles you to set up a drive and back up your stuff is so great for the average user. I'm sure both Linux and (I know) Windows have something similar, but it's not immediately active and trying to get you to save your stuff. TM has saved my bacon numerous times and I love that it's one click and a fresh HD for users to get it set up.
- I will always remember my first experience using MacOS: I am comfortable with computers and a relative needed help with their recently purchased macbook. I had plugged in a USB stick to transfer some files and was done and wanted to eject it. I spent way too much time than I care to admit, trying all possible options, right-clicks, settings, everything imaginable, to eject the damn thing.
  It was impossible to me to find the simplest operation with a USB stick, something required to operate it. I capitulated and looked online. The solution? I had to drag and drop the USB stick icon into the trashcan!?!?!?
  To this day, I will never understand the absolute ridicule of this and I will never comprehend how anyone is expected to figure it out on their own. And this is from the OS touted as the most user friendly and intuitive. Go figure.
  Edit: this was a long while back, no idea how it is nowadays.
  
  Yeah they have an Eject symbol by it multiple places, plus the trash can turns into an eject icon, plus of course the menu item you can use under the File menu now, so it's pretty well covered. Especially compared to the (to me) fairly inexplicable Windows "USB" blob that appears in the controls area to let your right-click and eject. But that was a definitely a thing back in OS 9 and prior, haha. I have no idea whose idea it was to make that the disk eject interface. I've heard the same rant multiple times for sure.
  
  Anyone who uses Finder as a file manager is a masochist. That's the worst file manager I've ever used. And that includes shitty Android file manager which have more ads than file managing capabilities.
- Shocker, you bought hardware with a compatible OS. That's the dudes problem. He didn't buy hardware compatible for Linux. 1984, so I know you are well aware, you have to buy hardware that is compatible with your OS.
  
  Yeah, but the challenge is knowing what is compatible to some degree...
- I'm sure both Linux and (I know) Windows have something similar, but it's not immediately active and trying to get you to save your stuff.
  Funnily enough, Microsoft does try to do this with OneDrive, prompting you during OOBE. A lot of the tech space demonizes Microsoft for exactly this.
  Which to be fair, a lot of that does come down to legitimate concerns (such as being far to eager about this even when you say "No" and not offering a "don't ask me again") - but at the same time, some of the push (likely) comes from a good place of trying to set up backups for users.
  It's definitely not completely altruistic - companies hardly ever are (cough cough, forced online accounts). But I also don't think it's as black and white as "Microsoft is bad for this". And though even I complain about this, the same goes for Microsoft being aggressive with Windows Updates.
  
  AFAIK, OneDrive is very different from Time Machine? More similar to iCloud? It's not a backup, it's just an online sync.
  The MS equivalent of Time Machine is File History, I believe. (Ie, a versioned backup that fills the hard drive until it's out of space and then starts deleting the oldest copies of files.)

Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
With Windows, there is 1 current version of Windows (11), 1 "almost current" (10), 1 "outdated but you'll maybe see it" (8.x) and only a few "you'll probably only see this in obscure situations" versions. Linux has as many "parent" distros/package management systems (apt, rpm, pacman, etc.). This definitely complicates things, as each distro family does things slightly differently.
And we haven't even touched the window manager/DE choices, of which there are a ton (as opposed to Windows). "Combinatorical explosion" maybe isn't the right phrase, but you get the idea --- Debian with i3wm is wildly different from Fedora Plasma.
This is all a good thing though, as Linux users tend to like the choice and flexibility --- but it does mean that the "right way" to do something on Linux is very dependent on your particular setup, which isn't the case with Windows.
(I have used Linux for the last 20+ years, and it's definitely my preferred setup, and am lucky enough that I rarely use Windows for work, and never for personal use.)
- That's why we got together and agreed on one version of Linux to recommend to new adopters.
- I wouldn't be surprised if Windows XP has higher market share than Windows 8 when you account for air gapped devices.
  Every old iOT device seems to to run XP

Write the kernel like a worm virus so it has self-maintenance and also self-replicates, spreading Linux to every connected machine it can. 🤡
- I think that spreading Windows across Linux machines is easier. Linux's root can be remounted as tmpfs, allowing the boot drive to be re-imaged. I don't know if Windows can do that.
  
  You might be able to do that with Windows Update

I don't even understand the question.

As some who first tried Linux in the '90s, uses it at work, and has it on at least one device at home, I disagree. Linux got easier, but so did windows. I do t daily drive Linux because software I need just will not run on my current distro as-is and would take hours of my time to troubleshoot and maybe get working.
When I went to upgrade that distro (Mint) it also had all kinds of stuff that required manual intervention that someone without Linux knowledge would have had a much harder time with

Since you find some motive to rebuild the kernel in your own way or correcting bugs from 80s cli applications you'll be quite there...

Linux is nice, but I wish there weren't so many distros. The entire project should be managed by a central authority that uses violence to punish deviance, like Lenin said.