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(in a similar vein)
There is a third choice, where you say both are bad (ie. anarchists and pure marxists). But most people on lemmy.ML are Marxist Leninists (ML) who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.
russia does not even pretend to be socialist
that's the craziest part to me! fuckin' tankies acting like a hyperfascist regime is their ally is bonkers
It's all very blurry in the head of the jingoists. They think russia is communist and everybody against NATO is secretly fan of pol pot.
Strawman meme. I don't like Biden and Obama not because they are war criminals, but because they are puppets of the bourgeoisie ruling class and their interests.
(ie. anarchists and pure marxists).
Who's a pure marxist?
who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.
Russia does not call itself socialist it is a capitalist oligarchy created out of the ashes of the USSR by the USA (Clinton + Yeltsin).
China and North Korea are socialist countries that are largely victims of Western imperialism. They are some countries that offer significant resistance to the western bourgeoisie imperialist order.
Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other authoritarian leaning interpretations.
They are the only countries who resist the western bourgeoisie imperial order
By trying to create their own imperial order. Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.
Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?
The number of Marxists who explicitly reject Lenin make up a tiny minority of the overall number of Marxists globally, and the ones who do so reside almost exclusively in Western Countries. Trying to uphold rejections of Lenin's expansions on Marx's original writings as "pure" doesn't really fit with that.
Secondly, no Marxist supports the Russian Federation, they see it as a horrible Capitalist regime that is temporarily working against the United States out of desparation. The concept of "critical support" is accepting that someone you entirely disagree with ideologically can be fighting a shared enemy, no more and no less.
Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?
Critically support, somewhat, and the argument is that in a geopolitical context the US is more dangerous to Socialist movements than countries opposing US hegemony at the moment, and that once US hegemony is toppled these countries that once had "critical support" can be turned into the next enemy to be fought, assuming they don't come to Socialism before then. The very fact that you say which is worse is "arguable" lends validity to the concept of critical support, as the alternative is further US domination of the Global South.
Even then, Marxists are divided on Russia with respect to whether or not to even critically support it. The notion that there are Marxists that support the Russian Federation outright as an example of Marxism is fantasy.
Bro smelt discussion about Marxism and dashed here immediately💀
Yea I'm a bit of a theory nerd...
It seems that you're in every discussion that contains some mention of socialism or Marxism. How many threads do you scroll a day?
A decent bit, I try to make it a point to correct misconceptions surrounding Marxism when I see them. I truly believe the biggest source of conflict on Lemmy is talking past each other, most people agree on the fundamentals, ergo correcting misconceptions when I see them is helpful to fostering a less toxic and less divisive environment.
Hopefully.
Well you're doing a good job... I think. I'm at least more open to socialism than i once was
Ah, yes, Lenin. Definitely the creator of Marxism-Leninism, no reason to talk about the other guy. Don't look up anything about Stalin, he's harder for tankies to whitewash, not that they won't fall ass over teakettle trying. It's their job after all.
Lenin created the theory, he didn't call himself a "Marxist-Leninist" just like Marx didn't call himself a "Marxist." In the context of the comment I replied to, they specifically cited Orthodox Marxists, a fringe minority among Marxists that intentionally reject Lenin.
Ok, so if I'm understanding this correctly, you're supportive of the actions of countries that oppress their own people (e.g. Russia's anti-LGBT+ laws, China's oppression of Uyghurs and Tibetans, etc.), aggressively invade other countries (as Russia is doing in Ukraine, as China sort of did with Hong Kong's semi-independence and is threatening to do to Taiwan, not to mention their enforcement of their claims in Vietnamese and Filipino waters), without being supportive of the countries themselves. Because you think that those countries causing harm to the western world is likely to eventually lead to the west doing less harm to the developing world, and/or help accelerate the proletarian revolution in western countries?
Is that a fair (in content, if not in tone) assessment of your stance?
I wouldn't say that's a fair assessment of my comment, plus I very specifically did not give my stance as my goal was to dispell the myth that any Marxists approve of the Russian Federation's Capitalism, ultranationalism, reactionary social views, etc. I don't want to give my personal stance here, as
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That would take far too long for a simple Lemmy thread to convey with any real complexity, and
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What I personally believe doesn't matter here, it wouldn't lead to productive conversation to begin with as Marxism is not a monolith (which was the central point of my last paragraph)
Ok, I guess you're a lost cause then. Your comments in this thread had me almost thinking I was speaking to someone reasonable, but nope...just typical tankie bullshit.
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Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other interpretations.
Interesting that the only actual examples of Marxist countries are those that followed the Leninist model.
Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.
Nazi Germany had an ideology that called for the extermination of millions of people. China and Russia do not.
Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?
Can't speak for ML, but Russia is a victim of US imperialism and offers resistance to the world order. It's not "arguably worse" then the West, it is a result of the actions of the west that Russia exists in its current form.
Literally ignoring the slaughter of Uyghurs and Ukranians, never mind how China is essentially building up the hate speech against Japan and Taiwan within the populace through their state controlled social networks. Get back to us when you can criticize China in the same way. Same for Russia, extreme jail sentences are dished out for anyone who criticizes Putin. You are too much of a caricature, and exactly what the meme refers to.
The USSR was a victim of trying to outimperial an imperialist power and going bankrupt, and now it's an oligarchy with Putin at the top and any serious opposition dead and out the window / irradiated with polinium / poisoned by Novichok. China has literal execution vans driving around the country, has extended its secret police deep state overseas to intimidate Chinese who don't play ball, and constantly rewrites its map to expand to land they want to claim as theirs. They are in border disputes with India, they are actively preparing to invade Taiwan, they have blockaded the island several times now, they have cooperated to cut undersea cables, have militarized fishing fleets that migrate world wide and bully local fishermen and exhaust the local stocks. And all you have is that raging desire to whatabout "b-b-but the US does it / does worse!" right about now and a whole bunch of rhetoric that makes you a puppet of it.
Russia is where it is at because it has chosen this road. Before Putin tried to use the myth of restablishing USSR to enlarge the rule of his oligarchy, it was well on its way to being quite influential in Europe, so much so that it was a major partner of Germany. Russia chose conquest and sides with dictators who exploit their people. It's telling that the US is at its worst when it has the people who collude closest with Russia.
Russia is where it is at because it has chosen this road.
Ah yes they choosed to starve for ten years while the oligarchs were salvaging their country.
how China is essentially building up the hate speech against Japan
Jeeeee I wonder why.
Interesting that the only examples of Marxist countries followed the Leninist model
Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the authoritarian branches.
socialist world order
I’m not okay with a world order supported by countries like China and North Korea, pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists, LGBT people, people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.
Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the authoritarian branches.
Funny all of those country got invaded by the US right after the revolution. I wonder if having a foreign army on his soil have something to do with an increase in authoritarianism.
I edited my comment, sorry, but...
Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the regimes.
At least they are AES. Just because they made mistakes in the early years of formation of the country, doesn't mean you throw the whole country away.
pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists and people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.
Socialism is just when the workers own the means of production. Socialist countries can engage in humans right abuses and war crimes, it doesn't make them not socialist anymore.
ain't no fucking way this fella's calling china and north korea resistance to the bourgeoisie and imperialism
What country is that?
China, North Korea etc
Oh right I'm on the transphobic instance based in genocide land. I keep forgetting to block you bigots on new accounts.
huh? I’m a bigot because I say China and North Korea use the aesthetics of socialism to hide their atrocities?
Oppressive governments are the direct consequences of US imperialism omg. Hell, as soon as they show weakness they get coup'ed.
Yes I’m sure Soviet Union killing anarchists and genociding their Ukrainian polulation was the “direct consequence of US Imperialism”.
Also a 3 day old account posting on a single issue and spamming dozens of comments every 10 minutes. Dodgy behaviour.
You got me bro I'm in the lubyanka with Boris, we're shoving caviar into our butthole.
Yes I’m sure Soviet Union killing anarchists and genociding their Ukrainian polulation was the “direct consequence of US Imperialism”.
Obviously, yes. The US decided to invade russia because communism was a bigger threat to them then german fascism. Obviously bolcheviks aren't angels, but regime tends to take extreme measures when facing an invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
Ah yes, German fascism in... 1920.