What discussion you know you are on the wrong side of?
What discussion you know you are on the wrong side of?
Maybe you haven't been convinced by a good enough argument. Maybe you just don't want to admit you are wrong. Or maybe the chaos is the objective, but what are you knowingly on the wrong side of?
In my case: I don't think any games are obliged to offer an easy mode. If developers want to tailor a specific experience, they don't have to dilute it with easier or harder modes that aren't actually interesting and/or anything more than poorly done numbers adjustments. BUT I also know that for the people that need and want them, it helps a LOT. But I can't really accept making the game worse so that some people get to play it. They wouldn't actually be playing the same game after all...
You're viewing a single thread.
Pronouns. I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it's super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way, but I find it unreasonable to demand being referred to something outside of the gender binary, simply because that's the way language works.
I am aware that English has used "they" for a person of unknown gender for ages, but for one, I don't think it's something that you should demand people call you when they actually know your gender, but also I really hate that this is making its way into other languages like my own, that has never had this convention. Inventing entirely new pronouns is just ridiculous, I have a hard enough time to remember your name.
I am also aware that language evolves, but this is not evolution, it's forced, and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I'm as much in my right to resist it if I don't like it.
People are super passionate about this though and in fifty years I'm sure I'll be seen as a fossil for not getting with the times now - in fact I'm sure certain people see me like this now.
Using someone's preferred pronouns is a sign of mutual respect, your refusal to do so is a sign of disrespect to those around you. It's really that simple, bud.
Do you call people Johnny when they tell you their name is John? It's literally the same thing, they've explained how they'd like to be addressed, and deviating from that uninvited is just rude.
I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it's super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way
It's dehumanizing and disrespectful, it's not annoying. I've had family members refuse to use an individual's pronouns, but in a heartbeat correct themselves for referring to a pet by the wrong pronoun. I've had people go out of their way to call me "man, guy, dude, bruh" when I'm fem presenting, and I'm the only woman they're speaking to that way while I get the "I talk like that with everyone, bruh," excuse.
and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I'm as much in my right to resist it if I don't like it.
Correct, but then you don't get to complain, like you are, that people get upset with you about it. You're not free from the consequences of those around you simply because you have the right to feel differently on something like basic human respect for your fellow people.
I don't get to complain that no one wants to have dinner with me just because they don't like me taking food off their plates, even though I don't agree with that societal norm.
Is "dude" actually still considered gendered? I literally call everyone dude
Language evolves because people force it to. It's not a natural organism independent from our choices. We choose taboos, we choose meaning, we choose pronunciation, we choose loanwords. It's all evolution. The idea that it's "forced" is ludicrous because no one can take words from you nor force you to use them. Your words are your own and no one is capable of stopping you from speaking them. But, if you choose not to respect the wishes of others, you will suffer consequences.
The reason some languages have a gender binary is often because that society forced a gender binary on people to control them. There are plenty of non-Euro languages that have no gender binary built in. Language is an active participant in social oppression and changing language is an active countermeasure to that oppression and indeed a tool in shaping future society.
Inventing entirely new pronouns is no more ridiculous than inventing yet another television show character or yet another tiktok dance craze or yet another romance novel or yet another $15/month subscription service that does the same things other service do or writing yet another magazine column.
We put effort where we care. That's how we work. Where you put your effort shows you what you care about.
Based
Language evolves because people force it to.
Sometimes, yes, often, no. New slang is naturally picked up and often makes it into the common vernacular, not because people are forcing other people to use it, but because people voluntarily start using. The same goes for loan words. The enter the language, and sometimes get mutated over time in that particular language. When "tablet" became popular someone tried to pick a Danish word for it, but it didn't stick. Same goes for many other computer-related words, which ended up just being the English word.
But, if you choose not to respect the wishes of others, you will suffer consequences.
This is the aggressive attitude that immediately makes me reluctant to adhere to any special pronouns people may choose. I don't know if you meant this as a lightly veiled threat, but people can become very aggressive if you "misgender" people.
The reason some languages have a gender binary is often because that society forced a gender binary on people to control them.
I haven't heard this before, do you have some reading material I can explore?
Inventing entirely new pronouns is no more ridiculous than inventing yet another television show character or yet another tiktok dance craze or yet another romance novel or yet another $15/month subscription service that does the same things other service do or writing yet another magazine column.
I would tentatively agree, if not for the fact that "the consequences" you mentioned above for ignoring any of these things are that I don't have to suffer them. The consequences for misgendering Elliot Page is ostracization, even if he isn't in the conversation or likely to ever hear about any conversation I will ever have about him.
Where you put your effort shows you what you care about.
That is true. And I really don't care that much about trans people. I want them to live a life without oppression with the same freedoms I have, but aside from that I care as much about them as do about the guy who lives in the apartment down the street, whom I've never met. And to that end, I think there are things that are reasonable to request from others in society, and I think there are things that are not. And changing the language for them I don't find reasonable, just like I would ask anyone to change the language for me, and shame them if they didn't. In the same vein, if people are so horrified about trans people using the wrong bathroom, just stop gendering them. To me, the only reason why we gender them anyway is because men take their bits out in front of everyone, so if we remove that part, they are virtually identical.
Your definition of "force" sounds like "anytime I am uncomfortable". Someone made a choice to invent slang, someone else picked it up. Not using youth vernacular as a youth often results in mockery. Someone brought in a loan word, others chose to use it. In business or political spheres, failing to adopt the style of the times often led to mockery, ostracization, or diminished station. None of that is force. It's all just choices.
You think suffering consequences for misgendering someone is aggressive but you don't think suffering consequences for being a "square" is aggressive. When we raise young people in the sales professions we tell them to get interested enough in sports to be able to talk about it to build rapport. Same for TV. There was a time when if you didn't watch TV you were cut out of conversation regularly.
Aggression is when bigots beat transpeople to death. Not when trans people ask to be respected through use of language. Aggression is when neo-nazis block access to drag storytime, not when someone asks you to use the pronouns they have chosen for themselves.
If you haven't read anything about how gender is a system of control I would recommend starting with any of bell hooks' work on patriarchy. Here's a short PDF summarizing some of the legacy of colonialism and its impact on gender-nonconforming people. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/cfi-subm/2308/subm-colonialism-sexual-orientation-cso-ilga-world-joint-submission-input-2.pdf
And finally, you don't care that much about trans people. That's the insight. You need to start seeing everything else you're saying through that lens. You're not rationally correct on each of your points, you're justifying your emotional position. The reason we are having this argument is because I do care about trans people and we can argue about the use of language, which makes you uncomfortable, to advance the relationship. I can get you curious about the topic, I can share things you wouldn't have heard before. The debate is the point. It's a social evolution, and one of the ways we are doing it is through language. There are other ways, like fashion, literature, drama, academia, sexual relations, legislation, court cases, public spectacle, conflict, solidarity, etc. But it's all evolving and there are people actively pushing that evolution in a direction that allows themselves to be safer being who they are as opposed to afraid for their lives on a daily basis.
Yeah I support trans rights. If you are consistent I'll use your preferred pronouns. I don't care what bathroom people use. Health care is between you and your doctor. I only care about what genitals you have if we are going to be doing things with each others genitals.
That said so many trans people are complete assholes about it. I'm on your side but fuck so many of you are annoying jerks.
I remember when gays started coming out of the closet and they handled it better. Polite but firm about being treated fairly. The trans community is making more foes then friends the way they are acting.
They aren't referred to as "preferred pronouns". That concept doesn't exist. They are just pronouns. The pronouns for this person are x, y, and z. There's no preference, just a declaration.
This might be specific to your region? Most trans people I know are grateful if you even make an effort. Even if you get it wrong sometimes.
Could be. Grateful and understanding does describe my two trans friends. However they we friends before they transitioned. So the relationship was established and they knew I cared about them.
I knew one for ten years before they transitioned. So yeah I try not to dead name them but it takes time to adjust. For me it took about 2 years before I didn't think of their old name and have to adjust it before speaking.
I was talking about them with a mutual friend at a party. Someone I don't know yells at me from across the room "we don't use that name here." I'm better friends with them then you and you just made the entire party aware of their status.
Maybe it's just the people who make it a big deal publicly and like to challenge people. They tend to be the most noticeable in the community.
Just use 他
He = 他
She = 他
Chinese Language Supremacy!
(Disclaimer: I have Chinese Ancestry)
I know, right? The pronoun for third-person female did not exist historically. When western culture hit China 100 years ago, they swap out the part where it means 'human' to make a new word.
Now when someone wants to refer to one in a gender-neutral way, they naturally write out the phonetic 'ta', as if the gender-neutral word is for male only.🤦
Same goes for second-person pronoun in Taiwan.
Stop these bullshits! The Chinese language does not need to address the gender! Figure that out in context! If you are writing and don't want to confuse your reader, just use the name!
I know a few trans or nonbinary folks. They either go by he, she, or they. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't. Then again I live in a weird progressive rural community.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
And it costs you nothing. :)
Zzzz