autismdragon [he/him, they/them] @hexbear.net

3mo ago

Hexbears, heres your problem. You yourselves are liberals about voting.

Disclaimer since based on my last comment i know the accusation is coming: i voted for claudia already. I think socialists should vote for Claudia if shes available.

I just also think voting is not the ultimate expression of politics and doesnt mean that much. The "its an endorsement" thing is true, but one extra endorsement does not equal one extra dead Palestinian. Thats just magical thinking. (Also, ive tried telling people the endorsement thing because its what changed my mind about lesser evilism, it doesnt work.)

And the idea that every Kamala voter is horrific evil when many are scared, propagandized, gaslit marginalized people doing what they think they need to do to not die is misguided. You guys claim to be the ultimate propaganda understanders but dont seem to understand its power. Are people still responsible for their actions? Sure. Does a vote of all things matter as an action all that much? Lmao fuck no. Its basically pointless.

Like ive actually talked to liberals about their vote. I didnt even have to touch grass to it! Where their coming from is wrong and ive told them that, but ive seen the effect the lesser evilism propaganda has on their mind. they are not coming from a place of evil with their choice Hating, "not forgiving", or throwing in the pit (as ive seriosly seen suggested) the 10s of millions of people who will vote Kamala in November is simply not practical. You cant hate humanity to that extent and organize. And you definitly cant desire to kill that many people lmao.

Also, most of you are ex liberals. Meaning most of you have endorsed war crimes with a vote. Probably worth keeping in mind.

61 comments

“Many of us like to ask ourselves, “What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or Apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?” The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
- Yea, because we got shit to lose
  People dont go out and start shooting unless they feel like theyve got nothing to lose
  
  I'm not even sure this is true. I would give up all my shit in an instant if I thought it had a 0.001% chance of changing things. I think many people feel similarly.

Nobody is immune to propaganda, yet the effect that propaganda has is overstated here IMHO. Read Masses, Elites, and Rebels. If a cis white lib is saying they're voting L3Harris out of fear, they've really just been granted moral license to not care and are using that moral license to justify doing the same thing they would be doing if no pressure was applied to them at all.
I think yelling at libs about voting is effective because the vast majority of them are not joining orgs, they're not communists that are just doing this one thing wrong, etc. They're libs! And they perceive voting as the singular most important political action (especially since the George Floyd protests have been memory holed). If we can radicalize liberals' understanding of voting, we can radicalize their entire politics. I know that because when I was a liberal myself, the first piece of theory I read was Bourgeois and Proletarian Democracy. After I read that, I radicalized very quickly, because my whole understanding of politics was based on voting for the right candidate and it was quickly shattered. So I believe that electoralism represents an attack surface for the left to exploit, since it has become the singular focus of the rank and file liberal politic.
All that being said, at some point it probably is worth shutting up about voting and just focusing on getting people to learn some useful skill, get organized, and agitate as many other people as they can to do the same. It would be really, really stupid if, for example, this whole site alienated a ton of its own already radicalized users over voting. It would be even worse if the same happened at unions and the DSA. It ain't that deep.
- You have to meet the people where they are, and right now that's the polling place.

they are not coming from a place of evil with their choice
they're making the conscious decision that murdering Palestinians is okay if it benefits them personally
- Most of the Germans during WWII and the Holocaust also were not nazis. The nazi party and the SS were only a small fraction of the total population. That didn't stop the Germans from actively participating in the Holocaust or helping invade/bomb other countries. Hell, neither WWII nor the Holocaust would have been possible without all of Germany being complicit.
  The number of people arrested, deported, and killed wasn't possible with the SS alone. They relied on local police being informed of where people were hiding by neighbors wanting to eliminate Jews, Roma, homosexuals, etc. If the SS went door to door searching every house, there's no way they could have captured as many people as they did. Those people were handed over to them by ordinary Germans not part of the nazi party.
  So no, I don't buy that excuse. Whitey is gonna whitey and if he is willing to throw Palestinians under the bus, he sure as shit will snitch when the time comes to eliminate the marginalized here at home.
- Exactly

when people show you they don't care about genocide, believe them

I feel like a lot of these callout posts that are definitely directed at specific people would be solved with the understanding that everyone on here understands the difference between Hexbear and real life and that rhetorical hyperbole exists as a means for commiseration and venting. Does it occasionally get a little extreme on here? Sure. Should you be concerned that we're all baying for blood in the streets? Nah.
- I'm happy to take suggestions on ways to improve my communication style for ND folks. I've been marinating in the hexbear house style to the point where maybe it'd be beneficial to take a step back and reflect a little.
  That said, it doesn't appear that OPs issue here is with people sounding like reactionaries, it's more against the performative misanthropy of comments like "Kamala voters get the pit." I'm inclined to read that charitably as venting and not as a literal call to murder millions of people and respect the fact that the people engaging in that rhetoric online might be perfectly normal in real life. I think this election in particular has ratcheted up the pressure on all of us to stay sane against a deluge of propaganda, some of which we deliberately seek out and expose ourselves to by getting into dust ups with other instances, so I can't say it's entirely healthy.
  I just wonder if these sorts of drive by posts where the op doesn't really interact are actually helpful and change minds or if they're just ways of getting approval and self-soothing after an interaction on here goes sideways, and I'm not sure that's happening along an ND/NT divide.

The US presidential election is a sham election even by the standards of bourgeois elections, so voting doesn't matter in the end. But just because it's meaningless doesn't mean it reflects well on someone who casts their ballot for the current genocider. It's like if someone upvotes a reactionary comment or post on Hexbear. The impact is practically nil, but they still would need to be reeducated and banned if they refused to self-crit. A major moment in the history of this website is transphobes getting banned for upvoting transphobic content. Imagine if they tried pulling some "uh aktually, this is a niche website. There's no material impact for my upvote. It doesn't meaningfully combat transphobia" excuse.
- Liberals will betray leftists per usual when the time comes, so at a basic level, I don't see the point of caring about liberals outside of being prepared enough to anticipate and make moves against the inevitable betrayal. As far as the US is concerned, more than half of the populace do not vote at all and it's higher for marginalized communities. This is fertile soil for radicalization. They on some intuitive level are politically conscious enough to recognize the pony show for what it really is, and they are just begging for someone, anyone to show them the light. Why waste time and energy on some Harris-voting freak when the politically disenfranchised are just standing right there?
  
  In the same way a fascist doesnt support self id for trans people, I dont believe in self id for fascists, sorry
  
  Correct. If I vote non Harris I fear trump will be elected which would be a faster and stronger genocide. I’m not voting because I’m okay with genocide. I’m voting to try to mitigate as much damage as I can in my power without creating an exceptionally higher amount of risk by voting how I actually want too.

I'm of two minds about this and while I agree with you mostly I do take a bit of an issue here
Like ive actually talked to liberals about their vote. I didnt even have to touch grass to it! Where their coming from is wrong and ive told them that, but ive seen the effect the lesser evilism propaganda has on their mind. they are not coming from a place of evil with their choice Hating, "not forgiving", or throwing in the pit (as ive seriosly seen suggested) the 10s of millions of people who will vote Kamala in November is simply not practical. You cant hate humanity to that extent and organize. And you definitly cant desire to kill that many people lmao.
I don't think anyone is serious about wanting to kill all libs, I can't speak for everyone but when it's coming from me it's clearly hyperbole because I'm just yapping
I think libs should be treated as individuals, there's a nice old boomer lady who feels genuinely scared of another Trump term who I'm completely kind and civil to because she's out with us every week protesting the genocide, I can see that she genuinely cares and we don't try to vote shame each other
Now on the other hand that old boomer dude I've never seen before who showed up at our protest last week to campaign for Holocaust Harris and vote shame us got none of that kindness or civility from me because he didn't fucking deserve it, frankly I regret not being a bigger dick to him
Online it's the same way, if they're trying to scold us I'm going to tell them how I feel and I'm going to tell them that there's blood on their hands
You are right that it doesn't matter

Calling it now

I will stay out of it, except for this comment.
I think I get what you're trying to say, and I don't entirely agree. As you've said it though I think I disagree a lot instead of just a little. I think presenting it as "1 vote =/= 1 dead palestinian" is flawed and a bit ghoulish and does you no favours. Likewise I think presenting yourself as a grass-toucher as opposed to those that disagree with you as being not-grass-touchers likewise will do nothing but inflame something that could otherwise give you a good and productive discussion, which I think is what you aim to do. As someone who is proud of being able to talk to liberals, I am a bit bemused that this is how you would phrase yourself when in discussion with comrades. Surely you yourself can see how provocative you are being?
I think that while voting normally does not significy a lot about morals due to people being surrounded by capitalist propaganda, this vote does, due to the fact it requires the voter to somehow rationalize accepting genocide (yes I know the rationalisation is "trump is worse", but I've got a lot of hangups with that.)
- I think that the primary contradiction of Hexbear is grass touching vs non-grass-touching and the openly inflammatory stance and ivory tower browbeating attitude towards anyone who is perceived to land on the opposite side of that dialectic is Very Good
  
  Okay this is my last comment in this thread, I swear. It almost doesn't count, it's just an addendum to my own comment really
  
  I agree. It's kinda comical how we can objectively mock the "I depicted myself as the chad and you as the soyjack" tendencies of other online forums, but then immediately revert to "I have depicted myself as the grass toucher and you as the online weirdo" arguments. It's the worst when people start listing their leftist credentials (at least one of our mods is heavily active in organising lots of direct action stuff, so it's not like being online has lots of correlations to being able or unable to do other stuff.)
  There's been quite a few discussions related to this tendency. Early chapo had a group of users who were miffed at the crass tendencies of the website, because it ruined what they saw as fertile grounds for organizing more serious things. It was from this group the "we need to distance ourselves from chapotraphouse" idea came from, as far as I am aware anyway.
  Personally I don't really see the website as anything super serious. The biggest potential it has is as agitprop and I think it would be cool if it could grow in size and influence, but I don't think that has a lot of relation to wether or not we have a comm called chapotraphouse... This got away from me, I forgot to take my ADHD meds this morning. I hope this was somewhat coherent.

they are not coming from a place of evil with their choice
except when they are, ie, when they're white and benefit from the white supremacy that undergirds the whole Election Spectacle, whether they're willing/able to acknowledge that or not
otherwise good post
Death to America

You cant hate humanity to that extent and organize.
I don't hate humanity, I hate people who want to officially cosign a modern Holocaust.
Legitimate question, would you feel this way if someone told you they hated German Nazis who lived in and supported Germany during and in the lead up to WW2?
Because the moral calculus is identical.
We're talking about people who support the modern equivalent of Hitler.
- moral calculus
  There’s your problem. Marxists are not moralists. Westerners are all already complicit and voting is meaningless. What matters is doing whatever is practical to actually support Palestine.
  
  Being kind to tryptamine was not going to help any Palestinians.

This ignores that the average USAmerican will let their country murder millions of foreigners if it meant their grocery prices went down by 10 cents
- Kamala openly said that at the CNN town hall. paraphrasing but it was basically "murdering kids is bad, but what about murdering kids and your grocery bill got 8% smaller". she might have even directly mentioned the price of eggs? my memory is blurred by a red mist
- I think it's worse in-person than online, even. Most of the pro-zionist libs and reactionaries I've met IRL have even worse takes than libs online. Just look at how many of them supported the Iraq War and Vietnam or how they ignored Obama drone striking weddings, hospitals, and schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Even with the benefit of hindsight, they'd vote Obama for a third term if they could.
  Americans turn into the most rabid of fascists when it comes to foreign policy.

I don't mind people voting for liberal candidates if they're otherwise struggling, lost, and/or confused and need to feel like they're doing something, for lack of understanding of the nature of organizing collective action. If it's a little peace of mind, okay, they deserve it.
What offends me about electoralism are the people who speak of the act of voting in moral terms.

I don't care if anyone votes or not, it won't change anything, but a protest vote is better than no vote, in my opinion. Voting for a leftist is a chance to voice your dissent and not remain silent. If Harris loses Michigan because several thousand vote for third party leftists, then our message has been sent.
- Agreed. No one has to vote, but refusing to vote has never been an effective strategy for dissent. Ideally, vote PSL. But honestly I don't give a fuck of you hand it to your toddler with a crayon and have them pick. It's the organizing that really counts

Are you serious?

I ran into someone recently who was all smug about voting, asking me, “Did you vote?” Yet, he was completely unaware of the local ballot items. This is due to the stupid national campaigns that emphasize just showing up to vote without understanding the stakes at the local level. No local organizations were strong enough to educate him on the harmful propositions, showing just how unorganized the left is. We’ve all seen good local efforts get crushed by capitalism, and even sensible ballot votes get overturned by state legislatures or vetoed. I recognize that there’s no winning through pure electoralism alone and that non-swing state presidential votes do not matter. If you’ve got time, maybe it’s still worth voting on down ballot stuff and following advice from your best local leftist org.

they are not coming from a place of evil with their choice
To the pure, all things are pure

yeah but then how can I virtue signal and feel righteous all day long online?!?

I thought this was already pretty clear. The “lesser-evil” mindset is strong and so is the propaganda supporting it. I’m not going to get mad over someone voting Kamala as long as they aren’t a shit head about it.
But agitating is raising awareness and so continuing to pressure is good imo, even if some get a little overly zealous about it
- The important point of similarity between Holocaust Harris and Adolf Hitler is actually that they both committed genocide.
  The important point of similarity between their supporters, is that they are both groups of people who knew that the person they were supporting was committing genocide.
  Hitler didn't get elected, he got appointed by a liberal due to pressure from business leaders. Harris has already talked about wanting to put Republicans into high level appointments so she's more like Hindenburg in that way. Of course, once again, the way she's like Hitler is that they both perpetrated Holocausts.
  I'd also like to clarify that I'm not comparing Harris voters to people who voted for the Nazi party prior to the Holocaust, when the Nazis weren't in power, during the Weimar Republic. I'm comparing them to Germans who supported the Nazi regime while it fed millions of people into death camps. That's who they are.
  You might be able to make an argument for libs who aren't particularly online and only watch mainstream news, but if someone is coming onto hexbear to try to proselytize, they're online enough that they're aware of the kind of evidence that has come out. They know what they're supporting.
  
  Well,it was the KPD, obviously
  Except that unlike Trump, they actually were a positive force

Might need to start shifting from using the term "voting" to "electoralism" instead.
Maybe some of these libs will learn the difference.

Hexbear on people with bad views on forgein policies: i can fix them
Hexbear on people with bad domestic policies: scum of the earth

I've seen the "we should throw Kamala voters in the
" comments, he's not lying, they're real.

As someone heavily involved in
's presidential campaign, I can say that OP's position is much closer to the official campaign than people disagreeing. By that I mean we are not particularly interested in how people vote, but in using the campaign to reach people and engage them in politics outside the electoral. Our campaign is a vehicle to big swathes of desperate and disconnected people who think of politics in purely electoral terms - whether that's that we have to vote for the lesser of two evils or that the failure of voting to fix societal issues means there is no path forward.
We know that when we go out and canvass, we're going to interact almost entirely with people who are not ideologically committed leftists. The phase of organizing in the US demands that our work be focused on finding and bringing in people who are not aware of the necessity or existence of a vanguard working class party and convince them that their vote is only an extremely small part of their potential political engagement and the general path to fixing this rotten country.
Therefore, we always have to approach people empathetically, understanding their position so that we can move them towards revolutionary socialist politics. That requires us not to denounce Kamala voters as Hitlerites in training.

Funny to see this. I kinda wanted to vote but my postman rejected my mail ballot so I'm not voting and this makes me feel better

My problem is you really can't effectively campaign for Kamala and acknowledge the genocide. You'll see many liberals try to thread this needle but then their campaign slogan is "vote for the lesser genocide" which really self defeating. Eventually they'll get sucked into genocide apologia or even denialism out of convienice. When that happens, fuck em. For the ones that keep trying to thread the needle, I'll keep asking them why they are so invested in electoralism.

I disagree completely. Liberals are white supremacists and have always been waging war on the whole world. They are weaselly and smug liars. They invented ads. They live off of the stolen work of whole enslaved countries. They are humanity's enemies.

Lmao, imagine voting ever. I gave Bernie $27 dollars and a temporary stay of execution in 2020, and I'll take both back in this world or in hell.
Vibes do not matter. Actions matter. If your decisions "are not coming from a place of evil" but the result of those decisions is "substantially more evil every single time", then your decisions are not sufficiently repudiating evil. Correct action comes from correct thought. If the action keeps being "kill more kids", then eventually you have to admit the thought "killing kids is okay, actually".

61 comments