5mo ago

The best argument for altruism

113 comments

To clarify, I think it's when you help other people without expectation of reward.
A libertarian cop would happily save your life from an angry grizzly bear if you paid them for the cost of bullets used, services rendered, and the bear disposal fee.
- Obligatory Libertarian Police Department ::: spoiler spoiler
  I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
  “Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
  “What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
  “Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
  The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
  “Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
  “Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”
  He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
  “Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
  I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
  “Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
  “Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
  “Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
  It didn’t seem like they did.
  “Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
  Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
  I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
  “Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
  Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
  “Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
  I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
  He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
  “All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
  “Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
  “Because I was afraid.”
  “Afraid?”
  “Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
  I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
  “Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
  He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me.
  :::
  
  Why Penn Jillette though? Is he for some reason popular with libertarians?
  
  What a great read, thanks!
- Don't need a bear disposal fee so long as you have RFK Jr. around.
- Libertarians would never win against bears.
  
  People focus on the bears thing, and not that most of the libertarians who joined the Free Town Project were men (wonder why women didn't feel safe joining; it's a mystery), and many (surprise surprise) turned out to be sexual predators or even murderers. They also quickly (and deliberately) bankrupted the town through budget cuts and spurious lawsuits, making life worse for everyone who lived there. The whole thing was a shitshow. Who knew that a philosophy of self-centeredness would attract the worst sort of people?
  Libertarianism. Not even once.
- But is it really help if it is necessarily transactional? I wouldn't say my mechanic helped by fixing my car because I paid him. If my neighbor fixed my car, I'd say he helped me.
  
  I think the concept of "hired help" is a thing, at least. They're not helping you out of the goodness of their heart, but they are helping you because they're being paid to. If my mechanic is able to solve a car issue that I struggled with for a while on my own, I'd still call that a help even when the relationship is entirely transactional.
  I think what you're describing with the neighbor is more like doing a favor, if I were to put words to it.
- Big L, not little l. Big L is the party, little l can vary wildly, even starting out along the lines of anti-state socialists / social anarchists.
  Like so many things, the modern right in the US has polluted the meaning.
  For example, left libertarians will support redistribution of resources, support of green policies, and is strongly anti-war.
  The Libertarian Party is just maga that... Well some of them think smoking weed is fine. And they dont want to pay taxes.
  
  Universal healthcare, universal education to a collegiate level, and UBI replacing most/all welfare results in much less government interference/involvement and results in the greatest individual freedom via geographical/socioeconomic/employment mobility.
  It's also not incompatible with capitalism, and in fact the increased mobility will spur more entrepreneurialism.
  
  I asked a CA Libertarian senate candidate where she stands on us left libertarians?
  she said left libertarians don’t exist.
  US is doomed.
- Equivocation.
- So taxes?
  
  Well, under a Libertarian model, t*xes are a dirty word.
  It's "unfair" that you should have to help support public services that you might need someday, so it's better to push the full burden of cost on the specific people who need it at any given moment.
  Insurance is fine though, which is basically privatized taxes. There'd probably be cop and bear insurance plans available in a perfect Libertarian world, so those with good foresight and the means to afford them wouldn't have to worry about having to pay to have their life saved.
  As long as, you know, the situation also doesn't include the following criteria:
  Only 1-3 bullets are covered by the plan, after which the policy holder is responsible for the full cost of any subsequent bullets used.
  The policy covers the services of [1] officer at standard working rate. Additional cost due to surge pricing rates will be covered by the policy holder. One additional officer will be covered by the policy at a rate of 50%, with the remaining 50% covered by the policy holder. Any additional officer fees are the full responsibility of the policy holder to cover.
  Bear disposal is covered in full by the policy, for bears up to 200kg. For bears greater than 200kg, the policy will pay 20% per additional pound up to 50lbs, after which the policy holder pays a flat rate of $50 per additional stone of bear.
  The policy does not cover bear- or officer-related damages to your person.
- I’d even go so far as to say “help an unknown person out financially without expectation of reward.”

Every time you help another person, a demon jabs Milton Friedman with a pitchfork.
- Causing him to take a massive shit into Ayn Rand's forced-open mouth.

I hate to nitpick but technically libertarians (especially small l, but even big L, which are different, and you used small l), are fine with helping people and mutual aid and altruism. What they have problems with is that being compulsory. They think that if you want to go help say the homeless or single mothers or animals or whatever your prerogative is, you should willingly donate your money to the cause if you have the money to spare and the will to share, but you should not be able to use the government to point a gun at some other guy to force him donate to your pet cause (i.e their view of taxes.)
I mean, there are certainly things to be said about that as well, some people believe helping others should be compulsory for example, and some things become a lot harder to organize without taxes, but it's helpful to at least understand the actual argument of your opponent and argue against it coherently instead of pushing strawmen that make it seem as if you don't entirely grasp their argument. A better example would be "any time taxes help someone a libertarian dies" for instance in this case.
- So a three year old who crosses their arms, yells no, and falls to the floor.
  
  I’ve never met anyone who called themselves a libertarian and also acted altruistically.
  Just my anecdote.

i guess i gotta help people now. and that's doubly altruistic because of all the children I'm going to save indirectly.

It’s such a convoluted philosophy it’s impossible to even say what it is because it means ten different things for ten different countries. In my country they are weird amalgamation of monarchists, conservatives and ultra-capitalist catholics but in Russia they like fight for lgbt rights.
- No. Actually the philosophy is quite clear. The man who coined the term and was the first libertarian was a revolutionary in the French Revolution. The problem is so many people apply the noun to things that clash with the ideology.
  Libertarians are not libertarian. Ideologically Libertarians often tend to be fascistic. But are so hyper self-centered. They do not buy into and will not participate in embracing any group identity.
  
  I wish people stayed true to the original definition of words. Politics would be much easier to navigate. But alas who doesn’t do social manipulation these days: We are freedom fighters except we hate lgbt and are pro Catholicism and some even want return of monarchy vote for us!
- It’s such a meaningless term it’s impossible to even say what it is
  Big "what even IS a racist?" energy 🙄
  
  I don't think that's exactly fair, the term did get coopted by right wing anarcho-capitalists, so its had a pretty significant semantic shift from its left wing social anarchist origins.
  
  Idk why you thought throwing racism here is a bright idea tbh

OK this one startled an actual Eda Krabappel-style "Ha!" out of me, thank you

I don't get why people are so afraid of Libertarians when it comes to social philosophies. Leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. You want me to do something I don't want to do, pay me. Weird how Libertarians get criticized for that when literally everyone has had that mindset with one thing or another in their life
- Their policies lead to bad outcomes. "We don't need a fire department and I'm not paying for it" -> "oh shit our houses all burned down".
  It also tends to come off as deeply anti social, and not everyone is that way.
  
  Your anti social statement is very fair lol.
  However what I was trying to say is not necessarily "we don't need a fire department" but moreso "the individual citizen shouldn't be paying for the fire department with their income. Nearly 55% of US citizens make less than $50k a year and the average income per household (in the previous percentage) is around $35k. So why should the individual spend their little bit of hard earned money on taxes when everything else is getting taxed as well?
- The big difference is economic, not social. The left has a larger overlap with Libertarian social liberties than the right. It’s the concept of economic responsibility to support the most vulnerable members of society that really differentiates the left from Libertarians.
  
  Trust me. I hate rich Libertarians. They're the problem with it. However, I do believe there's also been political propaganda against Libertariansm
- I would have a lot more respect for Libertarians if they took fascism as seriously as the left does. They should be MORE passionately anti-Republican.
  In my experience most of them don't care about personal rights if it doesn't impact them personally.
  
  Libertarians in my experience are those particular conservatives that are unable to form social bonds with other humans.
  
  I totally feel you, friend. Right-libertarians are typically the ones that are rich and try to play the game so they can get richer. Left-libertarians do support social systems and will participate in said systems. However, (and I have no ulterior motives using these words) left-libertarians just want the freedom and independence to choose and not have it forced on them
- Leave me alone, I'll leave you alone.
  Translator: Please go starve elsewhere
  Weird how Libertarians get criticized for that when literally everyone has had that mindset with one thing or another in their life
  Just because we've all been selfish and shortsighted doesn't make it ok for adults to act like spoiled children every time they have to pay their fair share for living in a civilized society.
  people are so afraid of Libertarians when it comes to social philosophies
  It's not fear, it's exasperation.
  
  It's really sad that you think. How many Libertarians have you ever spoken to in person?
- Because Libertarians only ideology is selfishness. They refuse to understand basic concepts that even anarchists and libertarians well understand and acknowledge. Like the fact that sometimes systems need exist. But no matter how well a system it's designed. It cannot be perfectly equitable, and still requires intervention. Or that the non-aggression principle is nothing but a thought terminating cliche
  
  I think you meant "non-libertarians" in that second sentence, and how is that any different from the systems in place now?

Libertarians help people. They just want to do it consciously by their own volition.
- Yes, that's how helping people works.
  
  Not sure where the controversy here is.
- It's like I'm happier when the people around me are happy. If you don't tread on me, I won't tread on you.
  
  People often are not happy if they live in poverty. The libertarian solution to that is essentially "stop being poor."

113 comments