GM & Ford Are Struggling With EVs Again, But Why?
GM & Ford Are Struggling With EVs Again, But Why?
Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Recently, there’s been some bad news out of Detroit. Ford’s backing off on some upcoming EV models, including a three-row SUV many had been looking forward to, and will instead be focusing more on ... [continue...
Recently, there’s been some bad news out of Detroit. Ford’s backing off on some upcoming EV models, including a three-row SUV many had been looking forward to, and will instead be focusing more on hybrids. GM has been having different problems with software, recently laying off 1,000 developers after a string of Silicon Valley types failed to acclimate to more traditional corporate culture.
While these companies would like to have us all believe that making EVs and software for EVs is simply too hard, other companies like Tesla and Rivian have been doing a lot better. Tesla is now making more EVs than anybody, even beating out ICE models in some segments. Rivian is still climbing the profit ladder, but is selling software to Volkswagen, a pretty good sign that “legacy auto” is struggling in odd ways while newcomers are having no problem churning out EVs.
So, we need to ask ourselves why these established players are struggling while newcomers are doing just fine.
Silicon Valley types failed to acclimate to more traditional corporate culture
Ford: We suck at software, hire different people to do it better.
Also Ford: The different people are doing things differently and my ancient management structure is scared and confused! Fire them!
Bringing in experts to fix your problems, then not letting them. Classic.
I see this all the time in tech. "We don't like product/service X. So we went with competitor Y. Then customized Y to look exactly like X. I don't understand why we don't like it. "
Looked at another way: People with no process control comprehension had difficulty understanding the requirements of safety critical software and are best building mobile apps rather than truly high reliability, critical software.
Just a thought as someone that's worked among Silicon Valley Types for decades.
The problem is almost certainly less about management style and more about development cycle differences. Ford's inability to understand software development strategies, and developers' inability to understand hard requirements and tight scoping.
I think there's truth in both camps here.
Certainly software developers don't understand safety critical design a lot of the time.
Also mechanical / production engineers don't understand software development a lot of the time.
However, EVs need very little software. Trouble is, they've been positioned as luxury cars, which do.
GM, not Ford, but your point stands.
my kingdom for a sub $25k, 420 mile per charge, hatchback EV. Make that, make it dependable, without any subscriptions or fancy electronics that accidentally brick the car out of nowhere, and you'll be able to buy the bank.
Getting that in a new ICE vehicle is nearing impossible. Hell, used car prices were topping that number out for a while.
Yeah the expectations for a cheap EV in the US are insane. I want one too, but realistically I want a 30k EV that gets 300+ miles. There are a couple of close options today, but more competition would be great.
Maybe in 5-10 years unless it's a Chinese OEM.
We'll get there though.
A 300m version, hopefully much sooner.
Exactly. That's the problem they're faced with. They're struggling on figuring out the best way to take advantage on their consumers with the software and subscriptions.
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including a three-row SUV many had been looking forward to,
Who. Who was looking forward to another fuckhuge 8 ton SUV on the road?
I suspect the fact that they killed it tells you exactly how many people had been looking forward to it. Nobody. The market for $100k behemoth SUVs is pretty well tapped out, and Ford almost certainly knew they weren't going to actually sell any. I don't know why it's a bad idea to scrap a vehicle that absolutely isn't going to sell in numbers worth manufacturing.
Lots of people want to switch to EVs but there basically aren't many options for 7-seaters (the Tesla X and Y both have 7 seater configurations but the back row is basically useless for actual normal sized humans). So the 7-seater+ gasoline powered SUV still sells like crazy in the U.S. market.
Sadly SUV and oversized trucks are all too common here. And universally the worst drivers on the road. Gotta love when a tank stops in the crosswalk and honks at you like you're the asshole for walking infront of them. What I wouldn't give to force all those idiots to trade out for smart cars, the roads around here would be a lot safer.
Notable performance was seen in the F-150 Lightning, with sales up 77% to 7,902 units, and the Mustang Mach-E, with sales increasing 46.5% to 12,645 units. The E-Transit van also saw a significant rise, with sales surging 95.5% to 3,410 units.
Uh huh. Really struggling.
That's a total of 23,957. You think that's good? Tesla in a slump sold 443,956 in Q2.
People who want to drive and EV aren't the same people who want to drive a giant tank
Also most people who want to drive EVs want to do so as a cost saving measure. ICEs can go for 25K where I haven't see an EV in my local area go for less than 40k.
I would love an EV but can't find anything in my price range, even used ones that optimistically get 70 miles per charge cost more than what a new ICE would cost. I can't even make a round trip to my parents and back on that.
I drove 3 hours for my ‘21 id.4 Pro S AWD for $19k and I’m really liking it. Same car in my area would have been much more expensive even with the slightly higher mileage. It also helped that we had the $4k PoS credit too.
The average person can't afford a $150k truck... Too much emphasis on computation instead of a vehicle that goes from A to B
F150 Lightning Pro $55k new, as low as $35 used. 200 miles real world range. No more tech than a regular ICE F150.
In what world is an F150 "a town car"?
Honestly I think the motor companies have made their own problem. By making people feel entitled to massive vehicles, they can't now do anything different.
35k used for a glorified town car that gets ridiculously less mileage if you actually load it.
There's a reason GM is bringing the Chevy Bolt back.
Rivian and Tesla make products for a different consumer demographic than Ford and GM. Ford and GM make cars, Tesla and Rivian make tech products that drive. Some people want what Tesla and Rivian are selling: advanced, high tech machines that don't look or operate like a traditional car, and some people want what Ford and GM are making: cars. Just cars. I don't think most car buyers care all that much if their car is ICE or electric, as long as it's affordable, easy and convenient, and meets their transportation needs. I don't think EVs can replace ICE vehicles until they are just cars, that meet the needs of people who need a car (or truck).
I look at something like the Chevy Silverado EV Work Truck. It's a good truck, that does truck stuff, with a lot of range and good power. But, it's $80k. Most people just ain't gonna spend $80K for a work truck. Some people will pay $90K to $100k+ for a high end luxury truck, like the Hummer EV truck or the GMC Sierra EV Denali, but those are high end vehicles for a relatively niche market. The mainstream options just aren't quite there yet. Battery prices have to come down more, so that vehicles can be price competitive, AND, there needs to be more charging infrastructure.
That being said, there are options coming to the market that are getting close, like the Chevy Equinox EV or Honda Prologue. Those are relatively affordable, decent to good cars, that also happen to be electric. I think the only thing holding those cars back from wider scale adoption is charging infrastructure.
I'm not convinced that this comparison is true anymore.
I think Doug Demuro phrased it well when he called the Model 3 "The Greatest Appliance Ever Made". The M3 and MY LR RWD cost the same as the cheap Ford and Chevy cars and crossovers / "CUV"s. Teslas aren't just playthings for tech bros. Now, Rivians on the other hand...
Tesla's have become much more price competitive, in those two segments (obviously that's not the case in the truck segment, since the Cybertruck is the most niche of niche trucks). If you're looking specifically for what Tesla is selling, it can be a great option. But, not everyone wants those models. Price isn't the only dividing line, it's also how it drives, styling and features, but also the brand. Companies like Ford and GM are pretty simple: they make and sell cars. Tesla is explicitly trying to disrupt the auto industry. I don't think everyone wants to buy a disruptive product. I think Tesla has tried to "fix" problems that weren't really problems, at least not for everyone. For instance, I don't think most people were thinking, "I wish I could replace all the physical dials and switches in my car with a single, 20 inch iPad." Or, "I don't like how door handles work, let's change them." Tesla is clearly selling what some people want, I'm just not sure it's what most people want.
I'd argue that Rivian makes a vehicle that operates like a normal vehicle and the "tech" part (infotainment) basically gets out of your way. Not much difference between Ford's vertical screen and Rivian's horizontal one outside the software that runs on it. That's the mark of a good vehicle, IMO. That it's a vehicle, and anything else it can do comes at a distant second place.
GM and Ford, and every other automaker have adopted the infotainment craze. Some have done it better than others, some companies have tried to force it on users while the quality is far below what it should be (Tesla). But you're going to be hard pressed to find a new Ford or GM vehicle that doesn't come standard with a touch screen interface these days.
Make one that's fast, zero to sixty in under 4 seconds and the quarter mile in the mid to low 11s. Instead you get boring that will get mopped by a minivan.
Make something neat, make something someone wants, and make it affordable. Make a cheap crap version for people who are brand loyal or want a cheap ev.
Not everybody needs a sports car. Maybe we should focus on making sensible vehicles for what people actually need, and less on the ability to drive through a building before the operator knows what went wrong.
The thing about sports cars is, it caters to people who LOVE cars, in turn, these people show these cars to others, their families ask the "car guy" what car they should buy and before you know it everyone is buying the non sports version of the sports car brand that the sports car guy liked. That is exactly how Tesla got to where they are. They built an awesome fast "sports" car that people loved and started telling everyone about. I firmly believe if Ford wouldn't have missed the mark on the Mach-E (and made an actually coupe mustang). I think Ford wouldn't be struggling right now. Ford had no electric car catalyst for car bros to tell their grandma and grandpa how awesome Ford electric cars are. They made another boring SUV.