‘We’ll die before enlisting’: Ultra-Orthodox Israelis storm army base
‘We’ll die before enlisting’: Ultra-Orthodox Israelis storm army base
The Haredi community's call for ultra-Orthodox Israelis to dodge draft orders has hampered Tel Aviv's enlistment efforts
Help I'm new to settler colonialism, is it bad when I'm fighting a war on 3 fronts and have 2 separate domestic uprisings in a week?
Have you tried being more fascist?
Fascists really have a thing for multi-front wars.
No it's a sign that you're winning because you are displaying your fearsome power.
If anything they should try opening up a few more fronts. Really intimidate their enemies.
"This just in: in response to a sudden increase in conflagrations, Israelis are apparently now being supplied with free fiddles by the government"
It is bad. ONLY 3 fronts? You gotta tell Europe you'll nuke them if they stop supporting your war crimes
They'll condemn the people who storm bases to not enlist, but they won't condemn the people who storm police stations to protect rapists.
We are not the same etc etc.
The haredis are fascinating; how is it that you are so religious that you won't join the genocidal army, but not enough to move somewhere else?
The government of Israel pays them welfare in order to do "demographic warfare".
Aren't many of them descendants of Jews who lived peacefully in Palestine before Zionist settlement?
the 'orthodox' movements emerged from the ashkenazi so the ones in palestine are zionist, but there's a variety of views on the state and violence---some don't like the state because its too secular, some actually oppose the violence on palestinians, some want to get all the benefits of being settlers without raising arms.
Technically alot of Palestinians are secretly Samaritans who converted to Islam apparently and technically the Samaritans are actually the best monotheists because they didn't get sucked into the Jerusalem power struggle even when it first started. I'd love to be corrected lol.
idk it makes sense given we don't seem to think American comrades are bad for not moving (they pay taxes to the murder machine because they stay there) (America is a settler colonialist country)
Of course these people have probably like a 50% chance of just not wanting to be shot for the Zionist project but still benefit? I have no idea what's going on
This is what I've been trying to express but poorly, this is much more succinct.
If I were trying to avoid the draft I would run away from bases
I mean unless you're trying to make some sort of point, I don't know if these people are really bad at understanding how to draft dodge or if they have actual ideological commitment. Very confused
They have ideological commitment. I think there will probably gonna be some more riots if they continue to try to conscript them.
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when did green man have his jan 6?
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Zionazi recruitment / dissapear vans incoming.
They probably view conscription among Haredi jews as an existential need for the future of Israel as the population trend suggests they'll be the majority in the future. The Haredi oppose the existence of a jewish state.
Getting people into the military would be a place where they can attempt to re-educate them and generate nationalist Haredi to shift the block seems like the bare minimum they need to do.
They've been trying and failing to get them to enlist in exchange for free school, but it hasn't worked at all lmao. All the dudes wanna do is study Torah
removed from everything else, having a large group of actionable people who you grant special rights to who oppose the entire existence of your state is fucking stupid statebuilding. How many state level checks and hurdles do you gotta botch to arrive at this point
The Zionists needed the Haredi Jews to cloak their settler colonial project in Jewish clothing. Having a “Jewish State” while expelling the only ones in the land that actually practiced Judaism and knew what Judaism was would not have worked from a PR standpoint but it was always going to lead to this contradiction becoming untenable. I think their hope was that the Haredi children and grandchildren would buy into the Zionist project in a way their fathers refused to. And in some ways they were right with significant divides within the international Hardi community over the state of Israel and the emergence of “religious Zionism”. One major issue the state faces is that the military is one of its main tools of “education” for the Zionist religion or whatever you want to call it but the Haredi children were not being processed through that machine and were, therefor, not turning into “good Zionists”.
Yeah i don't know what the longterm plan was. I guess they thought it would change.
I don't know what their plan is right now either. Assuming Israel is still around in 10 years time they will have to do widespread repression of 50% of the entire population.
If I wanted to end Israel I'd do it by organising them.
"Not because we're opposed to the war, we just think other people should die for our beliefs, not us."
They are opposed to the war though. They’re notorious for opposing the entire state of israel
I'm a little confused, how would that mindset make sense if they're saying they would rather die than enlist?
The ultra-orthodox draft is largely not about manpower, it's mainy about the contradictions in Israelis society (i.e. liberal rights/duties versus ethnoreligious identity) that take place in the base and the superstructure
Can we at least harvest your sperm and make little nano uniforms for them, promoting each individual sperm into a full fledged field marshal? We're trying to reduce the average age of our ranking officers, but we ran out of positive numbers.
The Israeli public broadcaster KAN reported on Monday that 30 ultra-Orthodox Israelis showed up to conscription offices despite 1,000 being required to register that day.
get fucked
spoiler
I have no strong feelings on this one way or the other
spoiler
Except
Highly critical support
I just read it. There's a distinct and almost glaring lack of reason explained by the article for why the religious leaders are telling people to avoid conscription, just vague gesturing at religious reasons and not any specific beliefs. It feels like it's trying to avoid mentioning it. Is this website usually based or
? If it's a based site than maybe these are just draft dodger settlers who don't want to die using weird rhetoric with no other reasoning, so there's no reasoning for the site to report. If it's a site than maybe they're trying to outright cover up anti-genocidal sentimentSome Orthodox Jews (even in Israel) are genuinely anti-Zionist, whole others just want to avoid military conscription because that shit sucks. I'm sure this is a mix of both.
Soon after Oct 7 there were videos of the IDF beating the shit out of Orthadox jews for opposing the genocide.
I'm a little lost, I've heard there was a religious group in Israel that despite not participating in the IDF are some of the worst reactionaries in the knesset; are the Ultra-Orthodox that group? I'm reading some posts in this thread that this group has people in it that are pro-Palestine? I'm lost on this one.
I'm also lost and dumb. But as I understand both groups exist. There are the ultra nationalist Orthodox that are also the main group settling the West Bank. Then there are other Orthodox groups that are religious but not nationalist, i.e. they are actually educated and seem to realize that God doesn't want all Palestinians to die.
All of the Orthodox groups have been exempt up until now. But I definitely think they want them to enlist not just for numbers but as others suggest as the opportunity for re-education
The ones who dislike the state and the IDF believe it’s an illegitimate entity because they were propped up by humans and not god.
I think there are like 8 versions of the ultra Orthodox, not to mention I think they tend to get super anal about which rabbi they descend from ideologically. It's hard generalizing a diaspora when you aren't a member of it.
Anti-zionism is not necessarily pro Palestine. But yeah, most of the haredi over there are anti-zionist.
I am seeing the point made in this thread that the many Ultra-Orthodox are opposed to Zionism or even the existence of a Jewish state.
Is that actually correct?
I was under the impression that outside of some commie-adjacent groups, there are virtually NO Israeli Jews who do not support Zionism.
There are Ultra-Orthodox sects outside of Israel that believe there should not be a Jewish state, but I was not aware of groups inside Israel that hold to that?
Like the Haredim, I was under the impression that they are every bit as Zionist as secular Israeli Jews if not more so, but that doesn’t mean they want to serve in the IOF. I thought their whole thing was that Israel is only held together by their devout commitment to studying the Torah and praying. And to force them to do anything other than studying the Torah means that Israel will incur God’a wrath. But in terms of killing Palestinians, they are a-ok with that.
Or am I completely wrong here?
Your confusion is extremely understandable and it is really hard to get a goo viewpoint into this exact issue from basically anywhere outside of the Haredi communities themselves. What makes it even harder is that there is not lock-step uniformity among "ultra-orthodox" Jews either in Palestine or outside. Traditionally, all Haredi Jews were anti-Zionist since they believed in the Jewish religion which, itself, is an anti-Zionist faith: some of the biggest offenses you can commit in the Jewish religion are (1) try to establish a Jewish state in the holy land (or even enter the holy land) through any means other than literally waiting for the literal God to literally come back to earth and literally resurrect the King David, thereby re-establishing God's kingdom on earth, (2) stealing anything from anyone, and (3) killing anybody. This is why Jewish communities rejected Zionism for 1800 years even though they knew what it was. HOWEVER, since the founding of the state, there have been massive campaigns to pressure the traditional religious adherents to adopt Zionism, including creation of new religious schools that are based on a Zionist version of Judaism. Making it even harder to distinguish from the outside - several communities of "ultra-orthodox" Jews in Palestine are comprised of former non-Haredi Jews who have adopted more traditional lifestyles while retaining their core Zionism. Add on top of that the general prejudices, racism, reactionism, etc. that already find fertile ground in fundamentalist communities of all monotheist religions, and you end up with a lot of people who look the same, dress the same, and talk the same taking radically different sides of the Zionism issue. However, the traditional Haredi communities who, for example, serve in the Knesset have often been anti-Zionist and, according to them, the reason they serve in the Knesset protect the traditional Jewish religious practice from the secular state that they fear. This has allowed them to ally with (or at least not oppose) genocidal, secular Zionists when they are doing ethnic cleansing in Palestinian territories because the primary concern of these ministers is letting them shut down their neighborhoods on the sabbath or prevent women form praying next to the men at the Western Wall, etc.
You love to see it folks
no more half measures walter
