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8mo ago

America’s premier pronatalists on having ‘tons of kids’ to save the world: ‘There are going to be countries of old people starving to death’

www.theguardian.com America’s premier pronatalists on having ‘tons of kids’ to save the world: ‘There are going to be countries of old people starving to death’

Elon Musk (father of 11) admires them. Thousands follow their ideology. Malcolm and Simone Collins are on a mission to persuade everyone to have multiple children. But are they really model parents?

The highlight for me is coming up with some weird pseudoscience justification for why it’s okay to hit your kids.

151 comments

Every article on pronatalism in the past few years has been these two Thiel-sponsored white nationalist dweebs and nobody else. Why the fuck does the Guardian fall for this shit too.
- @dgerard
  I contacted the reporter via her website, to ask what motivated the story when the Guardian just wrote about them last year, and if the couple's PR rep (who I assume exists) had instigated it.
  I don't really expect to hear back but it sure would be interesting to know.
  
  It's worth noting in the Grauniad's defence that the piece which mentioned them (among others) last year wasn't a commissioned interview article, it was a column by Arwa Mahdawi. Columnists usually have a regular gig to write opinion pieces on some topic relevant to their interests and then submit them for publication -- in other words, they don't have an editor telling them to go and cover something, they write about what they feel like writing about even if it turns out to be at odds with the paper's editorial policy (e.g. Simon Jenkins, who is a Guardian columnist despite regularly expressing some highly un-Guardian-reader views). As Mahdawi is a columnist who regularly focuses on feminist issues and the United States this would be entirely within her field of interest.
  Still doesn't mean these people deserve yet more coverage, though. I hope their kids get out of this toxic family having suffered as little harm as possible from a mother who apparently thinks that the only solution to "cheap, good-quality snowsuits bought from Russia" not fitting when you're pregnant is dressing like a tradwife and a father who really doesn't seem to like them and who does an abuse in front of a journalist which he thinks he can just explain away with pseudoscientific bullshit as "hey, that looked like abuse but it wasn't, it was SCIENCE".
  
  i pinged her on twitter too
- That's because there is no "movement" and the whole thing is a stunt to promote the ideas of the least thoughtful of all the unthoughtful people who nonetheless consider themselves intellectuals.
- Honestly any day the Guardian isn't publishing transphobia wearing a feminism mask is a good day for them.
- My Papaw has ten brothers and sisters and dropped out of the sixth grade to become an entrepreneur, but I don't see the Guardian beating a path to his door.

The Collinses are atheists; they believe in science and data, studies and research. Their pronatalism is born from the hyper-rational effective altruism movement
This is just gonna be eugenics, isn’t it?
Malcolm describes their politics as “the new right – the iteration of conservative thought that Simone and I represent will come to dominate once Trump is gone.”
What’s that now? Neo-alt-right? You can’t just add another fucking prefix anytime your stupid fascist movement goes off rails.
One of the reasons why I chose to have only have two children is because I couldn’t afford to give more kids a good life; the bigger home, the holidays, the large car and everything else they would need.
Yeah, what about giving them love or a warm relationship, or, you know, time?
And then they wonder why those generations have shitty relationships with their parents when they seriously believe that what they need is a big fucking car, as if that’s the variable that was missing in all of this.
Excuse me while I go and hug my daughter. I need to de-rationalize myself after reading this.
- I love how the journalist just reprints their reskinned Great Replacement theory at face value.
  And importing people from Africa to support a mostly non-working white population – because you didn’t put in labour to support non-working white people – has really horrible optics.
  Ah, so the reason you’re concerned about falling white birth rates and don’t want immigration is because it’s racist to allow “people from Africa” to immigrate to your country. Got it.
  I appreciate that the journalist was shocked by the bad parenting but I’d have appreciated a little more fact checking on the naked racist conspiracies.
- What’s that now? Neo-alt-right?
  I assume it is neoreaction. Not sure if you are a recent poster here, or were aware of sneerclub when it was on reddit but we talked about NRx there every now and then. (Not a fan).
  I don't know if the Collins are NRx, what I do know is that neoreactionary podcasters love the Collins. (According to a quick google search). And bonus for David Gerard, Grimes has reached out to the Collins source is the grimezs long post on Grimes her links to all this shit
  
  they are sponsored by Thiel, so 'ave a bleedin' guess
  
  Well damn, I used to lurk on old sneer club, but I gotta admit I missed that particular rabbit hole so far.
- What’s that now? Neo-alt-right? You can’t just add another fucking prefix anytime your stupid fascist movement goes off rails.
  It reminds me of how terrible sports teams will frequently change their logo and uniforms. (e.g. Vanderbilt's University's gridiron football team). Obviously, their lack of success is a branding problem.
- These idiots are atheist and conservatives? Morons, they're morons. The only thing that conservatives do to atheist is put them up against the wall when they have the chance. You throw it nationalism and it's a damn guarantee
  
  They'll stop being atheists and start fully being "tradwivies" the very instant their ingroup requires it. Give or take 7 seconds after the purges begin.
  They aint nothing but disengenious.

"Dad, why is my sister's name Octavia George?"
"Because your mother loves the Roman Empire."
"Thanks Dad."
"No problem Industry Americus."
- Jesus Christ I thought you were making a joke.
  But you're not.
  The imminent arrival of their fourth child, a girl they plan to name Industry Americus Collins
  
  The imminent arrival of their fourth child, a girl they plan to name Industry Americus Collins
  ah well, at least when they transition they won't need to change the masculine-gendered second name.
  
  no matter how absurd you may think these people are, they always surprise you by finding ways to be even worse
- Looks like someone's behind the times; all the cool kids are into the Eastern Roman Empire this season. That's why my kids are named Constantine Cataphractus and Velociraptor Paleologus.
- Next: "Are you coming to the baptism of little Deductio Tributus?"
  
  Sad they’re dissing the classics, like Incontinentia Buttocks.

They bought this house and the one next door for $575,000; they allow their neighbours to live in the second house rent free, in exchange for childcare.
Seems normal !
- This is part of a whole thing where the journalist keeps presenting their framing without question. Is it “allow their neighbours to live in the second house rent free, in exchange for childcare” or is it “they have unpaid live-in nannies in a staff apartment”? Do they “give everything they can spare to charity” or are they landlords who own property they don’t live in? Is she wearing a corset and chemise from etsy because it’s practical, or because these weirdos have put on staged cosplay performances for every journalist who’s ever interviewed them, and you’re no exception?
  
  Yeah these people have found their weird PR niche. There's nothing separating these people from other rich white Americans who can also comfortably provide for ~3 kids with good schooling and higher education. The real pronatalists are the scary Quiverful people who are a lot more numerous but are also religious fundies. There's no way the Collinses can compete with them because that subculture already believes around 90% of what they believe but are more effective at spreading their memes.
  
  This is part of a whole thing where the journalist keeps presenting their framing without question.
  Yuuup, and at no point is it explicitly mentioned that what they're doing is entirely unfeasible on a societal level. How on Earth will a couple dozen rationalist having 4, 7, or even 11 kids make up for the hundreds of millions of women in America having 1.5? Or the billions of women having under 2.1 kids in the rest of the world.
  On top of that, they only have 3 kids and they've already put a shit ton of time and sunk themselves over half a million in debt just for housing and childcare. I absolutely believe these two can afford it, but this isn't something most Americans can achieve, much less most global families. One couple trying to outfuck global population decline would be like if I tried to end global poverty by becoming really, really rich.
- Wow, these people have not planned anything at all. They're going to homeschool all 7+ kids? And go into politics, a job that infamously has long, unsociable hours?
  
  No, they're counting on not spending time with their children. Their worldview is all about populating, not educating.
  In fact, if you pester any of these people how they would plan to educate all these millions of new children you'll quickly find out that either:
  That is actually not planned for at all (hand waving).
  They actually only want certain (White people of means) to be having lots of kids.
  
  No need to plan things when you can use Rationalism, nominative determinism, and first principles to get over any troubles. Also the people who give them gifts are very rich.

"Malcolm had a turbulent childhood that he clearly doesn’t want to talk about. He comes from a wealthy family and grew up in Dallas, but was sent to a “troubled teen” residential facility when he was 11. The only reason he can give me for being sent there was that his parents were getting divorced and were locked in a bitter custody dispute, and the judge “thought I shouldn’t be with either parent”. After that, he lived at a private boarding school, with his fees and expenses covered by a family trust. “I have no beef with my parents. My childhood was hard, but my adulthood has been easy. Can I say a parent did a bad job if I’m happy with my life today? I don’t think so.” "
L to the O to the motherfucking L. These people are just reacting to their trauma and acting like they've found some magical answer to life being hard. Their poor children.
- The combination of the mother being all "I got raised by hippies, which I hated so I am doing the opposite", "we are very rational", " our kids will obviously be like us, only better". Can't they put these pieces together?
  Well, with that many children, at least one will write a book about how their childhood sucked.
  Chapter 1, I am so cold When I think about my childhood, I think about freezing...
  Chapter 12, Stop hitting me dad!
  And so on.
- After that, he lived at a private boarding school
  expenses covered by a family trust
  My childhood was hard
  oh no trust fund baby had hard childhood
  however, it's nowhere as hard as their children childhood is gonna be
- These people are just reacting to their trauma and acting like they’ve found some magical answer to life being hard.
  Big Kissinger energy

Malcolm and Simone Collins with their children – Octavian George, four, Torsten Savage, two, and Titan Invictus, one – at home in Pennsylvania.
bye
- @AmoebaGirl
  Guardian failed the “don't promote these specific cunts for 14 months challenge”
  https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/apr/20/pro-natalism-babies-global-population-genetics
  
  Perhaps the NRx-curiosity is a natural consequence of the Guardian’s “gender-critical” editorial stance? Look at all the other TERFs jumping into bed with actual masks-off Nazis.
- they definitely missed out on naming two of the daughers ursa minor maior and ursa maior minor.
  
  Their next kid will be named Ultima Thule, and they will claim very loudly that this is just because they are so big fans of astrology and that they never heard of the controversy regarding the name.
- Titan Invictus ... Are they playing Star Citizen?
  
  they're nazis, bob
- Is it me or are the names getting weirder as they go along?
  
  perhaps they named the child after this fucking gobshite?

some weird pseudoscience justification for why it’s okay to hit your kids.
It is to me so weird how often this comes up. A big plot point in starship troopers (the book) was that due to not hitting kids (and a vague handwave at criminals but mostly kids) western democracies fell for example.
Now I wonder how the NRx with their pro corporal punishment stance (which iirc Scott liked) feel about hitting kids.
Im also annoyed at how much words are written about the Collins. Stop promoting these doofuses. (They have come up in sneerclub before) (Late edit: She said she was really unsettled by this interview on twitter Sorry to hear you stared into the abyss Jenny, and I didn't mean this as a personal attack towards you (not that you will read this but yeah))
E: a thing I was wondering about, with the pronatalist technofetishists, who say that both we will all die out by lack of births as old people starve, and who fetishize AGI and robot labour causing a post scarcity world, that seems contradictory, I wonder how the Rationalists deal with this contradiction.
- Im also annoyed at how much words are written about the Collins. Stop promoting these doofuses. (They have come up in sneerclub before)
  Apologies. First time poster, all that stuff.
  The corporal punishment thing is a weirdly Anglophone obsession -- assaulting (sorry, "smacking") your kids has been a crime here since 1977 and the kids seem to be alright as well as having the bonus of being less likely to have grown up surrounded by violence and the threat of violence. In 7 years here I've seen exactly one person hit a child in public (looked a lot like a visiting grandma from elsewhere) and it came as a real shock. The more the Collins types (and, of course, fundie types) try to justify this as "normal" the less normal it appears to everyone else.
  
  Starship troopers was written in 1959 so it predates the ban by a bit at least. (I assume there was already research on it being bad in the works then, as ST goes out of its way to decry the social sciences as fake research, but their moral system which is based on math (never explained in the book, which is prob good as it would be highly contradictory, as going to war to save a few POWs is seen as just, no matter the number of lives lost) is correct. It is a really weird book to read in 2020).
  
  now you've got me wondering if it's anglophone imported culture war, or are there some other influences, like catholic church, and to what degree
  when corporal punishment was banned in my country in 2010, it was preceded by informational campaign on the state side and intolerable bitching by conservatives. when the law passed, conservatives shut the fuck up about it seemingly forever, it would make sense if it was cultural import that is if they never really held these opinions
- I mean in this article they claim that girlfriend will be able to have seven kids, spaced a year and a half apart, and homeschool them, and still keep her career. They're obviously not too concerned about contradictory statements.
  
  Yeah saw the whole longread reddit comments tear them apart over this, esp as she is 36 already and had a few c-sections or something, which isn't all that great for your body.

My favourite bit is the bit about “you can afford it, just choose a more frugal lifestyle” while young people today literally can’t afford to feed themselves. Also how about your ability to love your kids? Didn’t see that in any of your spreadsheets and your kids will hate you for giving them a shitty upbringing.
Close runner up is the bit about how we’ve had centuries of population growth, and it’s a huge deal that we’re not growing anymore without noting that all those centuries also included events such as wars and epidemics regularly killing off sizeable percentages of the population which doesn’t happen on the same scale anymore.
- Oh wait I got this, how about the bit about the oldest child taking care of the younger ones. They get to grow up fast and spend their precious time being an unpaid babysitter instead of actually being a kid pretty much ruining their childhood.
  Or how about the bit where the parents deliberately have so many kids gambling one will get rich and take care of them when their old. These natalists are delusional and I actually know a few irl that have said or done these and frankly its fuckin disgusting to me
  
  Oh wait I got this, how about the bit about the oldest child taking care of the younger ones. They get to grow up fast and spend their precious time being an unpaid babysitter instead of actually being a kid pretty much ruining their childhood.
  Common practice among quiverfull creeps.
  My mum grew up in Ireland in the 60s (one of 8 children) and witnessed some of this at school: little girls from families of 15 or 20, missing classes so they could mind their younger siblings.

Does anyone else feel like we are setting up to a near future where people who choose not to have kids are seriously discriminated against?
- It's already here. I was sterilized (I don't want kids, have a SEVERE genetic disability that I'd passn on, can't afford my own house, like to sleep in, enjoy traveling, think the world is overpopulated enough, etc) and get attacked by men and women anytime I mention it.
  I've apparently
  "destroyed my body"
  "Fucked up the only reason women exist"
  "Chosen to die alone"
  "Failed my country and family"
  "Made a selfish decision"
  "Chosen to be a slut instead of a mom"
  "Become useless to any man"
  The list goes on. If I change my mind, I'll adopt. There's nearly 400,000 children in the US foster care system and that number has nearly DOUBLED since Roe v Wade...
  
  Only failures and dissapoints are the people who attack you. Like what's the gain for them?
  
  “Chosen to be a slut instead of a mom.” Wow. I’ve heard some madness in my time but that is a magnificent sentence that says so much more about the speaker than it ever could about you.
- The entire "the world is running out of people" meme is just an attempt to find a non-religious rationale to limit reproductive choice.
  
  i thought it's mostly repackaged great replacement at this point
- Yes. Alongside a resurgence in anti-lgbt stuff.
- as far as I can tell that has been the situation at every point in western history, although I see what you mean about it getting worse compared to the status quo
- Yeah, I don't even tell people that that's the reason I don't have kids. Just that me and my husband are infertile, which is true because he had a vasectomy years ago.

These people are full of shit popping off like they do after THREE kids. Big fucking deal, my parents had three, and my brother and I were accidents. And they let us have heat in the winter and they didn’t hit us. Three is still normal!
There are some more lovely sneers in r/longreads
https://www.reddit.com/r/Longreads/comments/1d061p3/at_home_with_americas_premier_pronatalists/l5loa62/
- Nice link ,but man is Reddit shit to read nowadays with the newish layout.
  
  old.reddit.com still works... but for how long?

the fascism is strong in those
- @mawhrin @mpk "They’ve had the genomes of their frozen embryos tested and are selecting which ones to implant according to how well they score on intelligence and future health."
  That goes even creepier than I expected. Why did Guardian feel the need to do a second profile of them in what, a year?
  
  the eugenicist language and narrative should've been at least strongly challenged

I’m getting a vasectomy on Thursday. I won’t ever be able to afford kids, or likely my own home. The vasectomy is $228 out of pocket after insurance. That I can afford.
- Congrats! I am on the other side of mine and am going to verify a sample to get cleared.

I'm calling it now: these kids will have terrible childhoods, and seeing the moral bankruptcy of right wing ideologies up close will radicalize them into being militant leftists.

Everyone's least favourite rationalist couple

Valley Forge, PA
Yep, checks out.
- hmm I don't actually know the context here, mind sharing?
  
  York and the surrounding counties are currently very much a culture war battleground. There’s a bunch of school board initiated censorship, bomb threats against libraries (and then subsequent defunding of those unless they promise not to do anything that could cause offense to domestic terrorists), that sort of thing. (Edit: forgot to mention the hate tracker, some more stuff I didn’t think I wanted to know about my own neighbors)
  That crap is done by people and I imagine these folks are among those doing it, and so are their friends and neighbors.
  
  City very much in the heart of Pennsyl-Tucky

Ah these are the dudes with the unbelievably cringe Reddit dating history.

Id rather starve than enslave children

I don’t know where to start.

All I have to do is read the kids names and, poof, I can tell they are both idiots and narcissists.

I saw this unprompted in my social media feed and now so must you: these two think it's racist to criticise them for hitting their kids, because black people hit their kids. Apparently. Can you genetically select for shamelessness? How about vicious stupidity?
- The couple both said they found the backlash they faced on social media to be racist since, they argued, minorities often hit their children without the same backlash.
  "We are kind of shocked by the racism threaded throughout this recent controversy. It is pretty well-documented that African Americans and other minority groups practice corporal punishment much more than other groups," Simone Collins said via email, linking to a CNN article published in 2011.
  Malcolm Collins said it was "uniquely offensive" to him considering "the majority of Americans practice some form of corporal punishment, as you can see from the statistics with specifically that being the minority groups of Americans. So yeah, I think it's an arguably racist position."
  this is the stupidest fucking thing I've read all year
  
  I will have to agree.
- well, they are fascists, being obnoxiously racist is par for the course.

There are already way, way too many people on the planet.
- nah. there are too many billionaires though.
  
  Two things can be true at once
- I suspect quite a few of them are going to be unalived in the next 30 years, given the way things are going politically in various countries.
  Could be many millions, especially if Modi's India gets really bad and it overflows into Pakistan.
  Still not enough to make much of a dent in the total world population though.
  
  Nah, to do that you need widespread ecological collapse, famine, lack of clean drinking water, and ideally a really good infectious disease.

151 comments