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For anyone who claims "English is easier", I present you The Chaos Poem:
The Chaos by Gerard Nolst Trenité Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. I will keep you, Susy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy; Tear in eye, your dress you'll tear; Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer. Pray, console your loving poet, Make my coat look new, dear, sew it! Just compare heart, hear and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word. Sword and sward, retain and Britain (Mind the latter how it's written). Made has not the sound of bade, Say-said, pay-paid, laid but plaid. Now I surely will not plague you With such words as vague and ague, But be careful how you speak, Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak , Previous, precious, fuchsia, via Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir; Woven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe. Say, expecting fraud and trickery: Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore, Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles, Missiles, similes, reviles. Wholly, holly, signal, signing, Same, examining, but mining, Scholar, vicar, and cigar, Solar, mica, war and far. From "desire": desirable-admirable from "admire", Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier, Topsham, brougham, renown, but known, Knowledge, done, lone, gone, none, tone, One, anemone, Balmoral, Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel. Gertrude, German, wind and wind, Beau, kind, kindred, queue, mankind, Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather, Reading, Reading, heathen, heather. This phonetic labyrinth Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth. Have you ever yet endeavoured To pronounce revered and severed, Demon, lemon, ghoul, foul, soul, Peter, petrol and patrol? Billet does not end like ballet; Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet. Blood and flood are not like food, Nor is mould like should and would. Banquet is not nearly parquet, Which exactly rhymes with khaki. Discount, viscount, load and broad, Toward, to forward, to reward, Ricocheted and crocheting, croquet? Right! Your pronunciation's OK. Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve, Friend and fiend, alive and live. Is your r correct in higher? Keats asserts it rhymes Thalia. Hugh, but hug, and hood, but hoot, Buoyant, minute, but minute. Say abscission with precision, Now: position and transition; Would it tally with my rhyme If I mentioned paradigm? Twopence, threepence, tease are easy, But cease, crease, grease and greasy? Cornice, nice, valise, revise, Rabies, but lullabies. Of such puzzling words as nauseous, Rhyming well with cautious, tortious, You'll envelop lists, I hope, In a linen envelope. Would you like some more? You'll have it! Affidavit, David, davit. To abjure, to perjure. Sheik Does not sound like Czech but ache. Liberty, library, heave and heaven, Rachel, loch, moustache, eleven. We say hallowed, but allowed, People, leopard, towed but vowed. Mark the difference, moreover, Between mover, plover, Dover. Leeches, breeches, wise, precise, Chalice, but police and lice, Camel, constable, unstable, Principle, disciple, label. Petal, penal, and canal, Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal, Suit, suite, ruin. Circuit, conduit Rhyme with "shirk it" and "beyond it", But it is not hard to tell Why it's pall, mall, but Pall Mall. Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron, Timber, climber, bullion, lion, Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair, Senator, spectator, mayor, Ivy, privy, famous; clamour Has the a of drachm and hammer. Pussy, hussy and possess, Desert, but desert, address. Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenants Hoist in lieu of flags left pennants. Courier, courtier, tomb, bomb, comb, Cow, but Cowper, some and home. "Solder, soldier! Blood is thicker", Quoth he, "than liqueur or liquor", Making, it is sad but true, In bravado, much ado. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither does devour with clangour. Pilot, pivot, gaunt, but aunt, Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant. Arsenic, specific, scenic, Relic, rhetoric, hygienic. Gooseberry, goose, and close, but close, Paradise, rise, rose, and dose. Say inveigh, neigh, but inveigle, Make the latter rhyme with eagle. Mind! Meandering but mean, Valentine and magazine. And I bet you, dear, a penny, You say mani-(fold) like many, Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier, Tier (one who ties), but tier. Arch, archangel; pray, does erring Rhyme with herring or with stirring? Prison, bison, treasure trove, Treason, hover, cover, cove, Perseverance, severance. Ribald Rhymes (but piebald doesn't) with nibbled. Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw, Lien, psychic, shone, bone, pshaw. Don't be down, my own, but rough it, And distinguish buffet, buffet; Brood, stood, roof, rook, school, wool, boon, Worcester, Boleyn, to impugn. Say in sounds correct and sterling Hearse, hear, hearken, year and yearling. Evil, devil, mezzotint, Mind the z! (A gentle hint.) Now you need not pay attention To such sounds as I don't mention, Sounds like pores, pause, pours and paws, Rhyming with the pronoun yours; Nor are proper names included, Though I often heard, as you did, Funny rhymes to unicorn, Yes, you know them, Vaughan and Strachan. No, my maiden, coy and comely, I don't want to speak of Cholmondeley. No. Yet Froude compared with proud Is no better than McLeod. But mind trivial and vial, Tripod, menial, denial, Troll and trolley, realm and ream, Schedule, mischief, schism, and scheme. Argil, gill, Argyll, gill. Surely May be made to rhyme with Raleigh, But you're not supposed to say Piquet rhymes with sobriquet. Had this invalid invalid Worthless documents? How pallid, How uncouth he, couchant, looked, When for Portsmouth I had booked! Zeus, Thebes, Thales, Aphrodite, Paramour, enamoured, flighty, Episodes, antipodes, Acquiesce, and obsequies. Please don't monkey with the geyser, Don't peel 'taters with my razor, Rather say in accents pure: Nature, stature and mature. Pious, impious, limb, climb, glumly, Worsted, worsted, crumbly, dumbly, Conquer, conquest, vase, phase, fan, Wan, sedan and artisan. The th will surely trouble you More than r, ch or w. Say then these phonetic gems: Thomas, thyme, Theresa, Thames. Thompson, Chatham, Waltham, Streatham, There are more but I forget 'em- Wait! I've got it: Anthony, Lighten your anxiety. The archaic word albeit Does not rhyme with eight-you see it; With and forthwith, one has voice, One has not, you make your choice. Shoes, goes, does *. Now first say: finger; Then say: singer, ginger, linger. Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge, Marriage, foliage, mirage, age, Hero, heron, query, very, Parry, tarry fury, bury, Dost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth, Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath. Faugh, oppugnant, keen oppugners, Bowing, bowing, banjo-tuners Holm you know, but noes, canoes, Puisne, truism, use, to use? Though the difference seems little, We say actual, but victual, Seat, sweat, chaste, caste, Leigh, eight, height, Put, nut, granite, and unite. Reefer does not rhyme with deafer, Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer. Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late, Hint, pint, senate, but sedate. Gaelic, Arabic, pacific, Science, conscience, scientific; Tour, but our, dour, succour, four, Gas, alas, and Arkansas. Say manoeuvre, yacht and vomit, Next omit, which differs from it Bona fide, alibi Gyrate, dowry and awry. Sea, idea, guinea, area, Psalm, Maria, but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean, Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion with battalion, Rally with ally; yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay! Say aver, but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, receiver. Never guess-it is not safe, We say calves, valves, half, but Ralf. Starry, granary, canary, Crevice, but device, and eyrie, Face, but preface, then grimace, Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass. Bass, large, target, gin, give, verging, Ought, oust, joust, and scour, but scourging; Ear, but earn; and ere and tear Do not rhyme with here but heir. Mind the o of off and often Which may be pronounced as orphan, With the sound of saw and sauce; Also soft, lost, cloth and cross. Pudding, puddle, putting. Putting? Yes: at golf it rhymes with shutting. Respite, spite, consent, resent. Liable, but Parliament. Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen, Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk, Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work. A of valour, vapid vapour, S of news (compare newspaper), G of gibbet, gibbon, gist, I of antichrist and grist, Differ like diverse and divers, Rivers, strivers, shivers, fivers. Once, but nonce, toll, doll, but roll, Polish, Polish, poll and poll. Pronunciation-think of Psyche!- Is a paling, stout and spiky. Won't it make you lose your wits Writing groats and saying "grits"? It's a dark abyss or tunnel Strewn with stones like rowlock, gunwale, Islington, and Isle of Wight, Housewife, verdict and indict. Don't you think so, reader, rather, Saying lather, bather, father? Finally, which rhymes with enough, Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough?? Hiccough has the sound of sup... My advice is: Give It Up!Permanently Deleted
This is bullshit. Anyone who knows anything about linguistics can tell you that languages aren't objectively easier or more difficult to learn. What makes a language easy is its similarity to a learner's native language, or other languages they've already learned. Furthermore, there's a myth that certain things or ideas can be said or expressed in some languages but not in others, and this too is objectively untrue. All languages do the same thing, they just do it differently. If one language doesn't have a word for something, that doesn't mean it can't express the concept, just that it has to do so through other means, typically in a sentence or phrase.
What makes a language easy is its similarity to a learner’s native language, or other languages they’ve already learned.
Don't believe this at all. English is far more different to Chinese than any to any European language, yet I was able to communicate in Chinese much better after a few weeks of learning than after months or years of French and Spanish, because the grammar is simpler.
Familiarity with cognates, word order and grammar rules can't beat simply never having to use an article, agree gender or conjugate a verb for the subject or tense. Tell me a Chinese verb and I can talk about anybody doing it at any point in time. Tell me a French verb and I'll have to study declension tables all week.
Were you though, or did you just think you were?
It's also 'easy' to communicate in English. 'I want eat' 'where go this place' and so on. People understand, and probably will answer you. It's easier for something like that in Chinese to be grammatically correct - but did you master pitch accents and never mixed them up after 'a few weeks'? We're you able to read hanzi?
The thing is that with European languages, it's easy to fall into the trap of trying to express ideas that are too complex for your language ability if you are native in an European language. I don't remember French for shit anymore, but say I were to ask some French guy that doesn't speak English for a good restaurant to eat in, I'd probably go something like 'je veux mange, tu sais un bon Restaurant ici?' I doubt that's grammatically correct whatsoever, and sounds weird as fuck, but you'd probably get my point. It's probable you sound similar when speaking Chinese only for a few weeks.
The thing about 'not being able to be expressed in another language' is that one language might have a shortcut word for something another doesn't. That shortcut word might also be culturally charged, not that easily explained. Yes, you can explain anything in any language - for some languages you can just take shortcuts
Yes, you can explain anything in any language - for some languages you can just take shortcuts
Along these lines, some languages have a preference for longer or shorter words. There's an oft repeated factoid that the Inuit language has something like 50 words for snow. That's not entirely untrue, but it ignores that the language tends to have unique words that encompass more concepts. So whereas English would combine other words in a phrase to produce concepts like "soft deep snow", the Inuit language has an entire word. It's not like Inuit has special descriptive powers. It just takes up vocabulary space for concepts that could be mix-and-match instead.
Agreed. That said, what you're ultimately talking about is culture, of which language is only one among many aspects that impart meaning.
I agree with your second point. But it would seem that normaly the languages that are spoken primarily by people that learnned them as second languages would become more simplified.
For example english speakers say ate instead of eated wich would be the logical choice. If enough peaole learn it as a second language so that it becomes eated then the language becomes simpler.
And then tend to become complicated again as the speakers develop ideosincracies. But if there is a mechanism preventing this, for example its spoken over a wide area so the ideosyncracies never stick. Or the speakers are constantly interacting with forengers or both. Then the languaged gramar would remainsimple.
Persian gramar is much easier to learn than russian or spanish. And i asume chinise is likewise easier.
Haha, that’s exactly what I just posted. 100% agree
I also feel like there often is a temptation for people to believe that one’s native language is hard.
English verbiage can also a source of frustration for English learners.
For instance, you can chop a tree down. Once you're done, you can chop a tree up.
Imagine the confusion this causes lol.
I do agree though that the general lack of gender for most uses are really useful. It makes learning other languages more difficult though (basically all other languages).
It's just you.
In Germany we need to think about the position of the peer and if professional or casual.Yeah, the word "you" is a good example as well.
The only issue with "you" is that it lacks a plural version so we have to use the Southern "y'all" instead. Some people go even further with a mass plural "all y'all".
the all y'all sounds fun
"All of you." More unwieldy, but doesn't sound rustic.
Yinz is my preferred term, if we're going for regional words.
You'uns
Virtually all known languages do this, only some do it through the use of grammar.
This thread is full of bad linguistics.
This also happens in English, by selection of the words you use. Using Du und Sie is fairly simple in comparison. Strangers, last name basis, or professional? Sie. Kids, friends, talking to people out drinking on a friendly basis? Du.
The whole 'position of peer' thing has a lot more nuances in Japanese, and even that's not too hard once you get the hang of it.
For instance, you can chop a tree down. Once you’re done, you can chop a tree up.
Imagine the confusion this causes lol.
This is an absolutely minor thing, and it is also a phenomenon which occurs in basically all other languages.
Minor, yes, but there are quite a few of them.
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Break a leg
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It's raining cats and dogs
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Bite the bullet
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Piece of cake
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Hold your horses
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Spill the beans
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Hit the nail on the head
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Let the cat out of the bag
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It costs an arm and a leg
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Can't have your cake and eat it too
These are just idioms, all languages have their own.
Learning English has it's snags, but it's not a hard language. That's a good thing btw.
There are no objectively “hard” or “easy” languages. What makes certain languages “hard” is their difference from one’s native language.
Ah, we disagree my friend. I think languages can be easier or harder based on other criteria too, and not only familiarity.
Suppose an alien, the kind from outer space, crashes on earth and now needs to learn a language to communicate with humans.
It's not a stretch to consider that all human languages are so far removed from his own as to be considered equally hard to learn if looking only at familiarity. In this scenario, surely there are features of individual languages that make them harder to learn - stuff like gendered articles as mentioned before, as there's no logic to them and have to memorized.
I understand your point and opinion, but I think that, for us humans, it has more to do with similarity to our native language.
Idioms. Present in all languages.
Example from Japanese, transliterated:
Rain falls, the ground hardens.
So, is the meaning instantly obvious to you?
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It’s just not comparable to having to memorize arbitrary gender for every noun in the language
Yes, instead of having to memorize one of up to three possible genders for every noun, you only have to memorize an infinity of arbitrary pronunciations for every word.
Much easier.Those pronunciations are not arbitrary. Consistent spelling was not always important to English writers, so some of that may be arbitrary. The words though have diverse etymologies reflecting multiculturalism born from brutal imperialism spanning centuries. It is often a system of language evolved from violent colonial expansion. Every weird word and spelling that breaks the rule has a story. It may not be a perfectly ordered system because it lives and breathes while some parts grow and others whither and die, but nothing about it arbitrary. Maybe I've been listening to too much of The Allusionist podcast.
Yes, but we're not talking about the linguistic history of how words developed.
We're talking about learning a language and the lack of consistent rules can make that quite difficult.You brought up history, not me, by ignoring it through your claim about arbitrary pronunciations. Such a claim ignores history to make a weak argument for language learning difficulty. Pronunciations are not arbitrary.
I'm saying that there are no consistent rules so language learners have to learn each word individually.
If you learn languages by memorizing every singe vowel shift since proto-indo-european then be my guest but for someone who just wants to speak the language and has to learn the difference between plough, through, though etc, it seems pretty damn arbitrary.You have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of the word arbitrary.
So the spelling is irregular, so what. You’ll be bad at spelling for a while.
People mostly learn languages by reading.
having to memorize arbitrary gender for every noun in the language, learn complex verb conjugations, polite and impolite forms and make every verb and adjective agree with the nouns in gender and number
If you mess those up, people will still understand you. Saying "un chaise" instead of "une chaise" doesn't change the meaning and everyone knows what you're saying.
However, if you learn english words through text and then try to use them vocally, nobody will understand you. (looking at you "beard", who isn't pronounced at all like "bear" for some reason)
There is absolutely no correlation between spoken and written english, so in practice it's the same as having to learn two languages at once. Even adult native speakers still aren't sure how to pronounce simple 1 syllable words such as "route" or "vase", that's pretty telling how confusing that language is.
However, if you learn english words through text and then try to use them vocally, nobody will understand you. (looking at you “beard”, who isn’t pronounced at all like “bear” for some reason)
If someone pronounced beard like bear with a d on the end I'd understand them fine. Particularly since the rest of the sentence would probably be perfectly grammatical since the grammar is so simple.
People might understand "Le baguette sont fraîche", they might not. How do they know which words you got right and which you got wrong? They just know nothing agrees. Either way you will sound like a total moron. And you need to learn 3 different grammar rules to fix it, not just one pronunciation.
There is absolutely no correlation between spoken and written english
Come on, this is silly. I'm looking at your comment and almost every word has regular pronunciation. Any incorrect pronunciations would be easily understood. The specific examples you give are just regional differences.
Yeah, babies can learn whatever language easily enough. Except Danish, lol: https://theconversation.com/danish-children-struggle-to-learn-their-vowel-filled-language-and-this-changes-how-adult-danes-interact-161143
If reading is too hard, how about listening Lindybeige recite it to you.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=tfRSvTSY0d4&
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I remember reading something about the size of Kanji in comparison to the alphabet, and someone brought up that while (eg) Japanese has something like a little over 100 syllables you have to learn to pronounce, English has over two thousand
Some of these depend on dialect - where my family is from, gaunt and aunt rhyme, for example.
Of course, that makes it worse, not better :P