Democrats: You have to vote for democrats to stop Trump from round up people and shipping them to concentration camps for slave labor.

I mean no disrespect by this, but I'm going to pick only a few points from your reply, I believe you and I have hashed over the others already in many threads.

Elsewhere you say that movements should be grassroots first. Elsewhere in the thread you then state that down-ticket races won’t have much effect. Elsewhere still you argue that presidents taking executive action and pressuring them to do so is largely worthless because they don’t control the other houses.

Each of those is in a specific context. Yes any meaningful movement is going to have to be grassroots first, without that it has do driving force to overcome entrenched interests. Down ticket races wont have as much of an effect if biden is president and, preferably, the dems end up controlling at least one house. If trump wins the presidency then I would want to see both houses controlled by the dems, and certainly at least one. So whether the down ticket races are critical, or have less effect rather depends on who gets the presidency. Assuming the worst and voting accordingly there would seem like prudent course of action.

But that will affect down-ballot races! School boards! Run-offs! Blah blah blah…

As I said elsewhere, each of those is on it's own cycle. The major election of president, and the down ticket votes at that point are probably the most consequential, so deciding to demand changes in policy for them is probably best done early in the cycle, rather that in the last few months, to give he candidates time to incorporate that into their plans. I appreciate that many people probably are shouting about this, but it's clear that it's not loud enough, or coordinated enough to affect the candidates or other voters.

Also, if you think a presidential election cycle as defined by the parties is only six months long then you haven’t been paying attention.

I know their positioning isn't defined that soon before the election, but if you want to see it change they need time to do so. We've seen that can be moderately swift (the unaffiliated protests for example got some small results in a shorter space of time) but changing messaging in the run up to the election is seen as damaging, so parties try not to do it.

Dictators famously require being voted in and run on that ambition.

I refer you to the rather well known case of a certain wannabe artist in Germany. He'd made it clear that he would act like a dictator and was voted in to an amount of power, from which he seized total control. The way I see it, if trump is willing to say he wants to be a dictator, it's one if the few things he's said that I should believe.

They also famously do that, succeed, and then insist four years later that in order to do it, they’ll need a second term.

I am not aware of him saying he wanted to be a dictator before his first term, but could easily have missed that. Not winning a second term is what seems to have pushed him over the edge into saying that. The rest of his hateful rhetoric, yes that was going from before term one.

if you believe he is a unique threat why don’t you support any and all options to ensure he never again occupies the presidency?

Short of violence, as far as I can see making sure he doesn't win this election will do that as he'll be far to gone to demenia by the next election to be a threat. Who'll take his place is a separate question, but there is time to deal with that before then. That's what's confusing me about so many people's responses here. The reality is that there are only two people who can be the next president, bad and worse. It's an atrocious choice to have to make, but it seems clear to me that one one course of action makes sense. I know that to others a different course makes sense. That's why I keep asking: given the electoral reality in front of us right now, what course of action would you, personally, have people take, and what what would you anticipate the outcome of that being?

Without threatening to withold votes, within an incredibly narrow electoral only parameter, in a tiny time frame where anything less than total guarunteed success means its not worth doing. This is what you’ve asserted here and throughout this thread.

I've tried to explain this is a previous post, but again, withholding votes makes sense, if, and only if, the candidate knows why and can respond to that without losing more of their other voters. If you've made your case to biden's campaign then I apologise for underestimating you. The same goes for the down ticket candidates, they can only respond if they know your position and it makes sense from a voter count to do so.

please provide some examples of the Democrats making an about face on policy within one election cycle, based purely on electoralism. Bonus points if you can provide some examples of that without even threatening to withhold votes.

I don't think I've said anything about the democrats making an about face in one election cycle and certainly not without voters threatening to withhold their votes. I have tried to explain that I'm not saying people shouldn't threaten to withhold their votes, but should do so in a way that gets that information to the parties early enough that they can incorporate it into their plan. Ultimately, if a party thinks it can win an election if it can win over those voters and not lose more voters it already has, it has to do that to win. The uncommitted protest showed that a large enough group of voters making it clear their vote was contingent on certain changes can and will have an effect. It wasn't a huge effect on biden's Gaza policy, but it was noticeable. Critically it was done in a way that didn't risk letting a worse option take over the White House again.

But you assert that if they refuse to change their position, you have to vote for them anyway. So there is no threat of them losing an election, because you advocating for voting for them no matter what, and having not using any leverage you might have. (This is another key point you never address whenever it’s put to you)

I've addressed this multiple times. I'm not advocating voting for them no matter what. I am advocating voting for biden in this election because the alternative is worse and the odds are so close to 50/50 that the risk of trump getting in is too high. Down ticket I would be more comfortable seeing more dems get in, primarily as insurance against a trump presidency, but also because so many of the republicans are cleaving so hard to trump that they're the worst choice in their races too.

They don’t care about losing their job. They care about not going against the wants of donors who will provide them their next job. They’ll become lobbyists, or sit on boards, or even just be given cushy party positions that aren’t voted on in exchange for their loyalty to the donor class. And the donor class and party sure as shit don’t care about candidates losing their positions. They can just drop another one in, usually at less cost than the previous one since they’re not established and have no leverage of their own. In fact, the people who run the party machinary often stand to benefit from their candidates losing elections, as it increases donations which give them power, keep them employed, increase their salaries and comissions etc.

Ok, but by that logic there is no point withholding your vote at all, as it isn't an incentive, but seems to be what you're advocating. I agree that most politicians are going to walk out into a comfortable second job for the people who bankrolled them, but in order to do that they need to be of value to them first. In order to do that they need to stay in power for long enough to get some of what the donor wants done. That is why they do care about being re-elected at least a few times. Without that they don't get their fairytale ending. Withholding votes is therefore a useful tactic. I haven't argued against that at all, all I have stated is that as the election nears, unless you can honestly say you've made the candidates for each position, from president down, aware of your position and what they need to do to win your vote, withholding it isn't useful. In the case of the presidential election in particular I would say vote to minimise harm, in the other elections give thought to what your vote, or non-vote, will actually cause. If you're in a solidly non-swing State your individual action probably doesn't change anything but the margin one candidate wins by, so it might be reasonable to make a point. In a swing State it might be more of a case of aiming to minimise harm again. It sucks. All of it sucks, but that's the state of things right now.

If you don’t engage in good faith, you don’t get further effort and discussion. And you haven’t, even when you’ve been offered it.

As mentioned in another thread, I've been getting replies on about 25 threads, and I'm trying to reply to each in a reasonable way. I wasn't really expecting this level of response to what I thought was a relatively uncontroversial comment that the supreme court had been packed by trump. We've definitely covered a fair amount more since then, and I appreciate the time people have taken to do so. I've also noticed that you are one of the most prolific of those responders, so thank you, I know I am almost certainly trying your patience.

Your original premise, that you’ve repeated, is that not doing this is unacceptable. You also never addressed why you draw the line there when I asked elsewhere.

It seems to me that at each election, the sensible thing to do is act to minimise the resultant harm. Between elections is when the work of changing course needs to happen. Yes there are multiple cycles of elections at different levels, each can be treated as it's own task. I think that's what you're asking, but I'm not certain.

Then why would one do something that you acknowledge makes the task much more difficult?

Because not doing so makes it even harder. The further right politics drifts the harder it will be to pull it left and the harder life will be for a great many people.

And then add all the other myriad restrictions you’ve dictated

The only things I've be advocating are not doing anything that would increase the chance of trump winning and making sure that candidates in any election know why you would withhold your vote early enough that they can actually do something about it without losing more of the rest of their voters.

Literally hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, of people throughout history have done this to great success, as I have pointed out elsewhere.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. Yes, many have advocated for different approaches throughout history, and in other countries, with some success. What I am referring to is the here-and-now. Over the last electoral cycles, where has the messaging been to actually inspire large enough groups of the electorate that there is a better way? The fact that large enough groups haven't been inspired to demand change means the messaging isn't getting out effectively.

People in this thread have articulated everything from broad marxist philosphies on developing proletarian power, to specific use of strikes, to even electoral strategies that fit within your deliberately impossibly narrow ‘acceptable’ electoral frame. You’ve ignored or handwaved all of them away.

They have, and I thank them for it. I have tried to respond as best I can, if I have missed points, or not articulated myself well that's on me, but I have certainly not handwaved away anyone. I do worry that the approach of "I'm not going to vote for biden because he is evil/hasn't earned my vote/isn't left enough/whatever" ignores the fact that the outcome of the presidential election is a simple either/or at this point. Assuming you are closer to biden's politics that trumps, not voting just tips the balance slightly towards trump. This doesn't penalize biden in any meaningful way, but it does penalize the people who trump wants to harm. He's made it clear he supports all the same genocide that biden does, but to an even greater degree, so that won't change for the better, and he's demonizing minorities, so they'll suffer even more. To me that seems like a simple choice, but it seems it's not to everyone. Further down ticket I feel like the dems remain the least bad choice, if only to limit trump should he get in.

One of the other posters suggested they would vote for a presidential candidate who couldn't win, and then dems doe the rest of the ticket, and whilst that certainly wasn't my first approach, I agreed that it could actually work. They made a good point that that could open up some space for more left wing candidates by showing the votes were there if they were earned. That approach sort of matches with what I was saying before that as long as the dems hold one or more of the houses it would limit the harm from a trump presidency. I don't like the concept, but I can see how it could have the desired outcome.

But if you really want to look deeper into the issue I’d suggest starting here.

Har har. I was sort of expecting that. As I said, I'm doing my best to engage in good faith, but I think we might be coming at this from such different directions that neither of us are actually getting our meaning across effectively.