What's the deal with Isreal vs. Palestine side taking in the West?
What's the deal with Isreal vs. Palestine side taking in the West?
I feel like I've been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can't find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.
So far from what I've read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can't find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they're an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?
I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don't expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you're highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!
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There's sort of 3 sides to the issue.
- A pro Israel side, which includes people that believe all of Palestinian land should also be only theirs as well as people that maybe don't care about the land but care that Hamas is defeated and/or the Israeli hostages are saved
- Pro Hamas side: people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
- Pro Palestinian side: Don't want innocent Palestinians being bombed, starved or shot by Israel. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
I don't hear any real Pro Hamas people (since Hamas is very must a terrorist group), other than circumstantial ("Hamas is literally the only option Palestinians have aside the other side that is literally killing them"). Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel, which is what led to the October 7th attacks in which about 1,000 Israelis were killed. They felt that peace with Israel was not helping their goals, as Israel bombing Palestinians would help recruit more Hamas soldier with which to use to help destroy Israel.
The UN and many countries feel that despite Israel having the right to defend its citizens and attempt to infiltrate and destroy terrorists(Hamas), Israel is executing this plan in such a way that is unnecessarily killing thousands of innocent Palestinians(both through weapons but also starvation), about half of which are children.
A lot of the misinformation in regards to this topic are: "If you don't support Israel you're antisemitic", "You're either supporting Israel or you're supporting Hamas", "Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas", "Israelis completely support what their government is doing"
I'm too lazy to source the above so obviously assume I'm lying/wrong (same with anybody else not posting any sources). You should read actual articles from reliable new sources, but hopefully the above gives you some information to understand what those articles are talking about.
people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
Nobody important seriously believes this. Not even Hamas. Well "Israel should be destroyed" is a popular position, because that's calling for an end to Israeli Apartheid. "Push them into the sea" rhetoric died in the 90s.
“Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
They do though. Specifically 80% of Israelis and 88% of Israeli Jews.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target. And Hamas themselves called for the eradication of jews in their founding manifesto. Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto, but Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10, again, considering every israeli a valid target.
The pro hamas viewpoint is rare in the West but Netanyahu going for the world record on "most children killed" is also probably not doing favors for the public perception of Israel around the world.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target
That's why I said nobody important.
Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto,
Uh yes exactly. Hamas radically changed their approach to the conflict in 2006, and then in 2017 updated their charter to reflect that.
Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10,
Yes.
again, considering every israeli a valid target.
No. They've actively denied that Hamas fighters were responsible for any civilian casualties, and claimed that any such cases are accidents. Now that's obviously not true, but they definitely didn't consider every Israeli a valid target.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian, thats like believing the IDF when they say they dont consider every civilian a target. It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian
66%, even including counting crossfire, the involvement of other less trained forces (including random Gazans who happened to enter through the hole Hamas opened) and Israeli friendly fire (the latter is not insignificant; there were multiple proven cases of Israel choosing to kill Hamas fighters along with hostages instead of letting them return to Gaza). Not denying the atrocities that Hamas actually committed, but given these factors 66% isn't indicative of any deliberate targeting.
It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
What I'm trying to say is: Hamas's official stance is that Israeli civilians aren't valid targets. If they do consider all Israeli civilians targets (which considering how pragmatic Hamas generally is as an organization would make absolutely no sense) they're definitely not saying it out loud. They said they'll repeat 7/10 against Israel, the political entity, not that they'd keep killing civilians, is what I'm saying.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them. This is an extreme form of violence against innocent people, even if you accept the claim that the killing of civilians was unintentional which I find extremely dubious.
A charitable interpretation is that they have an extremely callous disregard for civilian lives in their campaign. Uncharitably, we could make an argument that their behavior indicates a clear desire to kill Israeli civilians. Either way, their claims here are total nonsense and I think actually make their malice towards Israeli citizens more, not less clear. They know what happened on Oct 7th and lying about it demonstrates that they have no desire to avoid the atrocities committed in the future.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them.
This is a textbook case of don't blame the player, blame the game. Whatever little of Gaza's dignity Hamas will be able to preserve after the war will depend on the hostages. While it sucks for them it'd suck worse if after this is all over Israel starts "resettling" Gaza or continues their starvation campaign.
I don’t think Likud and IDF leaders care too much about the wellbeing of the hostages, and their behavior pretty clearly reflects that.
What they do care about is international pressure, especially from the US. So if Hamas wants to maximize their bargaining power they should be seeking to undermine the public narratives around the necessity of the war. One possible way to do this would be the release of the hostages, which is constantly brought up as a justification for continued attacks on Gaza.
It would also be, you know, ethical but I guess we are past pretending they care about that.
I don’t think Likud and IDF leaders care too much about the wellbeing of the hostages, and their behavior pretty clearly reflects that.
They don't, but the Israeli public does. This will matter if a Gaza remains after the war ends.
So if Hamas wants to maximize their bargaining power they should be seeking to undermine the public narratives around the necessity of the war.
Honestly, nobody who doesn't already support Palestine will change their position because they released the 30 or so hostages that are still alive. It'll just be called a move for clout, which won't be too far from the truth. Also during post-war negotiation what's important won't be clout with the international community; that's more of a long-term thing. What they will need then is negotiating power with Israel. Maybe it'll be different if the international community actually takes an active role in negotiations, but we both know that's not happening.
So, according to your numbers, 20-12 percent of israelis don't support what the government is doing? Doesn't sound like israelis completely supports what the government is doing in Palestine. Thats a majority sure, but there's a not insignificant amount of people that don't support what the government is doing in Palestine.
I don't think anyone is trying to imply that all Israelis support what their government is doing, but 80% (including 88% of Israeli Jews, which are the main demographic we're looking at here) is a very damning number. Related: I don't have the total number for this one, but the number of Israeli Jews who believe Israel is using too little or an appropriate amount of firepower is 94%. Again not all of them, but these are pretty damning numbers and dispel the idea that there's real domestic opposition to what's going on in Gaza.
Maybe that's my bias, but that seems to be a very... specific way of sorting sides. Mind if I rephrase that?
- Pro Israeli side, which includes people who care that the hostages be saved. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
- Pro Israeli control of Palestinians side: people that believe any Palestinian autonomy will result in a repeat of the Oct. 7th massacre, partly because of the, well, Oct. 7th massacre.
- Pro Palestinian side, which includes people who believe Israel should be destroyed and Jews killed, as well as people who maybe don't want want Jews killed but care that Israel is defeated and/or Palestinians are not bombed.
I'd say both phrasings are about equally accurate and objective.