debate club

You know, when you advantage a hypothetical displacement over an ongoing one, the implicit argument is that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. You're asking: wouldn't it be horrible for the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?

If you think it's unfair to displace one oppressed people in favor of another, then yea, I agree.

And the slogan is “Palestine will be free”. It isn’t that Israelis will be exiled or some shit. It is a call for liberation of all people.
- Let's also not forget that these people didn't seem to care that Israel very much engaged in "from the river to the sea" when they continued to displace and marginalize the majority-population mid-20th century as dictated by outside nations.
  And if the world was that concerned over the refugees of the Holocaust, why didn't the British or Poland volunteer a piece of their own land?
  
  I mean, it’s because the antisemites wanted to get rid of their Jewish population. Belfour (of the declaration fame) was wildly antisemitic.
  
  Let's also not forget that these people didn't seem to care that Israel very much engaged in "from the river to the sea" when they continued to displace and marginalize the majority-population mid-20th century as dictated by outside nations.
  This was actually in the original charter for Likud
  
  The thing is that nobody cares about Holocaust survivors, Israel has completely forgotten about them and most died in abject poverty despite the world paying lip service with millions in charity and repairs ending up in the pockets of zionist politicians while the holocaust survivors suffered and starved.
  
  Umm. Generalize much? Sure there are some people fitting that description but the vast majority of holocaust survivora have led hugely successful lives. Heck, they built Israel.
- You mean like women and minorities are "free" in Palestine?
  
  Pink washing doesn’t really work when the state you are staning for doesn’t allow interfaith or gay marriages to be performed in country.
  
  At least, you know, they allow people to be gay or have another religion.
  It's interesting how so many people stan for a place like Gaza and the Westbank. And even call for Israel to be abolished and everyone become a part of a new country called "Palestine" that murders gay people and openly hates people of other ethnicities and religions.
  It does seem to me like these people either don't know much about the culture and history there, or they don't care. Which doesn't fit to the overall virtue signalling to pretend to be on the side of justice.
  
  Again, you are painting all Palestinians as members of Hamas. They are not. And it is obvious they are not given the demographics of the region. Thousands of children have died in Gaza. They are just kids man. Israel will never be able to get rid of the stain and the people of America are waking up to what we are funding.
  You are also making Israel out to be a bastion of rights for minorities or women. When Utah or Alabama are more progressive than you, it doesn’t say much good about your system.
  The slogan is Palestine will be free. It is meant to say that everyone, EVERYONE in the land between the river and the sea will be free. Meaning that Jews and non Jewish arabs should live side by side as equals instead of the evil supremacists system Israel has today.
  I view it as a call for a secular democracy without apartheid, which worked out in South Africa well enough without blood shed. I hope it goes as well in Israel.
I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die because Jihadists are using their own people as human shields. There have been over 7 times where the Palestinian people have had a chance to establish an actual state. They refused each and every time. So I'm struggling to see a parallel between what Israel is doing (defending its people) vs what you are suggesting.
- I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die
  This makes it sound like Israel's existence depends on the Palestinian people NOT being free
  
  What a coincidence, it does.
  
  The Palestinian people have had many many options to accept a two state solution and "be free". But they will never be free because their leaders only want the distruction of Israel and death of all jews. And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
  
  I'm Palestinian, grew up in a Palestinian family, went to lots of protests, "Kill all Jews" is not something people say out or appreciate. The problem is with Zionists, not Jew.
  That being said, totally legal to march in Israel and chant "Death to all Arabs"
  
  Ok. I assume you don't live in Gaza. Because then you'd be learning antisemitism in school: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eu-study-confirms-incitement-in-palestinian-textbooks
  And I assume you don't go to mosque because then you'd be hearing about gharqad
  And probably didn't attend these protests: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/death-to-the-jews-chants-heard-at-berlin-pro-palestinian-rally/amp/
  https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjdkan0mp
  
  Yes, antisemitism exists. No, Palestinians as a collective don't want to kill all Jews. The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement.
  And no, I did not go to those protests, and if I did I would have spoken up about it and not let people chant such bullshit.
  And no, I don't go to mosques, I'm an atheist.
  Ah yes and the antisemitism in books claim:
  One religious studies textbook asks students to discuss the “repeated attempts by the Jews to kill the prophet” Muhammad and asks who are “other enemies of Islam.”
  This is a historical event, regarding specifically the Jewish tribes near Mecca. That being said, fuck Mohammed and fuck Israel just the same.
  A math text showed a picture of Palestinians hitting Israeli soldiers with slingshots to describe Newton’s second law of motion.
  LOL. What is the issue exactly? Doesn't say "Jews", says specifically hitting an Israel soldier, as one should when all means of resistance have run out.
  Another textbook “promotes a conspiracy theory that Israel removed the original stones of ancient sites in Jerusalem and replaced them with ones bearing “Zionist drawings and shapes.”
  Yes, good example of antisemitism, haven't double checked this though and don't really know what it refers to 🤔 pretty sure Israel ruined all sorts of historical Palestinian sites anyway.
  About Dalal Al Maghrebi, yeah, that's bad, I agree, she should not be hailed as a hero.
  
  The Israel government on the other hand is adamant to kill every last Palestinian or ethnically cleanse them with forced displacement. - please show your proof. And please don't give me quotes from several outliers which unfortunately have been brought recently into the Israeli government. They don't represent the majority of Israel as apperantly the multitudes cheering in the streets while the October 7th hostiges were paraded through Gaza streets represent the people of Gaza.
  
  They don’t represent the majority of Israel
  but they do represent the actual government
  
  Yes. This is a bad government. Is that a reason for the atrocities of oct 7?
  
  Everything on the news today. That's proof.
  
  That's proof that there is a war on. No proof of any systematic killings. Based on Palestinian reports there are about 20000 dead, no information of course on how many of them combatants. So over the course of 3 months you have a less than 1 percent fatalities. I point you back to my meme and ask tou where's the genocide. In the ww2 bombing of dresden 25000 people were killed in just 4 attacks. Israel is doing everything possible to kill only combatants. As I mentioned earlier it is impossible to avoid civilian deaths as they are being used as human shields. Military equipment is constantly being found in hospitals, mosques, schools and under childrens beds.
  
  I'm tempering my response here considering it looks like this account is singularly focused on zionist agitprop, but this bit here:
  And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing[sic] only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
  sure sounds a lot like you're attempting to justify genocide because people have rightly criticized Israel for brutality and indifference toward the [non-combatant] people of Gaza.
  I can at least feel reassured that none of your fascistic and genocidal comments have gotten much support here. You should redirect your efforts elsewhere.
  
  Ah. The genocide card. It's actually great when people bring that one up. Please check these facts: Palestinian population 1948: 1.37 million Palestinian population 2023: 5.5 million in Israel, about 14.2 million world wide. Here's a meme concept for you, the one with the dog from rick and morty: "where's the genocide summer?"
  Btw, for real genocide: Jewish population of europe before ww2: 9.5 million Jewish population after ww2: 3.5 million See how that works?
  
  "Genocide"
  Yes I'm posting this again

From the River to the Sea does not necessarily insinuate that all Israelis will be displeased, killed, etc.

At minimum, the Israeli state should be abolished. I think first generation settlers who aren't refugees and can return to their home country should probably leave.

Please go on. Where should the jews go? Which countries in the world would gladly accept 7 million jews? And by abolishing the Israel state I assume you are a big supporter of Sharia law. So no women rights, all LGBT people should be put to death, etc...
- Did I say they all had to leave?
  
  So only the gay and queer people, non-muslims and women who want human rights should leave?

Whatever country they come from or to new palestine if that's not possible.
Yes, all Israelis

Hang on, don't stop. Which countries? And by new palastine do you mean the one controlled by Hamas who have kill all jews and christians in their charter? So basically just kill everyone who is currently living in Israel?
So all the christian and muslim arabs who are Israeli citizens too. Right? You wouldn't want to come off as a racist impliying only jews should be displaced would you?
- 1.The countries they came from. They are Jewish settlers. I.e they came from other countries to settle I'm palestianian land. So they should return to the (mostly European) countries they came from. Or they can join they can emigrate elsewhere if they don't feel safe lying in the bed they made with how they treated Palestinians.
  Just like any other decolonisation effort, the colonisers need to leave or they can stay and try and integrate or face retribution for their colonisation. Are you going to feel bad for British colonisers that got caught and displaced during revolutions in the BE?
  Yes obviously, hence why I spoke about Israel and not about Jews. Its a decolonisation effort, so they either leave to their country of origin, emmegrate elsewhere or becomes citizens of a decolonisation Palestine. You trying to imply I'm being antisemitic just shows you don't actually care about the issue and are just using usual tactics to try and win an argument on the internet.
  
  The majority of people living in Israel are not Europeans. Perhaps read something else than just propaganda for a change.
  What do you suggest gay and queer people, muslims and women who want humans rights are supposed to do?
  
  Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20all%20Israeli,from%2C%20Ethiopian%20and%20Indian%20Jews.
  How about you read something other than propaganda for a change?
  What do you suggest gay and queer people, muslims and women who want humans rights are supposed to do?
  Move to countries that reject them? Being an oppressed minority does not give you the right to steal other people's land and commit atrocities on them.
  
  If they can't return to the country of their or their parents origin, then they need to go through the process of becoming legal citizens of Palestine.
  Having kids their does not entitle them to the land they were born on. Russia has occupied crimea for 10 years now, there will be thousands of Russians that were born there. Does that mean Crimea belongs to Russia? Does that mean Ukraine calling for its historic borders to be recognised is genocide?
  
  You do know that the ancestors of many Israelis are native to that area, yes? Why do they have less rights to the land and their culture than the other groups who live there?
  
  Other than the few that lived their during ottoman rule the vast vast majority of Jews immigrated after the mandate. So the only way they have ancestors that are native is if you go back some 2,500+ years.
  And if we want to do that than anyone can trace there ancestors back to Africa and you can excuse European colonialism in Africa the same way you are excusing Jewish colonialism.
  
  The vast majority of Sabra have ancestors who fled and were exiled from Muslim countries in the region. More than half of the Jews living there are Mizrahi, many have ancestors who are native to the area. An additional 20 % of Israeli are Arabs who have ancestors in the diverse ethnic groups who populated the area, long before the land was separated into Israel and Palestine.
  The separation between Israel, Westbank and Gaza is more a religious than an ethnic one. Since Gaza and Westbank want a pure Muslim state. But original the are la wasn't pure Muslim. The ongoing conflict between the Muslim and non-Muslims groups in the area predates the separation and was one of the factors which led to the founding of Israel.
  The idea of European colonizers is just propaganda used to paint a black and white image of the situation.
  
  The idea of European colonizers is just propaganda used to paint a black and white image of the situation.
  Lmao you're kidding right? Litterally the entire reason Israel exists is because of Britian and the UN wanting somewhere for their Jews to go, because they were still seen as a problem and they would rather have them in their own country than Continuin to live in their countries and now almost half of everyone in Israel is descended from those Jews that came from Europe and America.
  There is absolutely no way you can spin this story so doesn't involve western colonialism.
  He'll even if it was 90% none European descendents that wouldn't mean anything. Plenty of countries in Afrjca were colonised but didn't end up with large European populations. Does that mean the rush for Africa didn't happen.
  
  So you're calling for decolonization of all countries in the world? Every person should immigrate back to their country of origin? And how long back is "country of origin" defined? Do you acknowledge that all Jewish people originate from Israel or is that something we need to debate as well?
  
  Obviously not, lots of countries have already been decolonised and most over aren't colonised in the first place. Or if you argue the toss (which is all you seek to be able to do) they were colonised so long ago that there is no way to actually decolonise them. Like say England.
  But if you come down to earth for a moment. Israel was created <100 years ago, and there still exists Palestine and its people that had their land stolen from. Much of which was stolen very recently. Acting like there's no difference between this situation and every other country is dishonest at best and I'm sure you're already aware of that.
  Now do you actually care about this or a you just trying to win an Internet argument against someone who disagreed with you.
  
  "there still exists Palestine and its people". No. Before the state of Israel there was the british occupation. Before that the turkish ottoman empire. Before that there was an Egyptian rule and so on and so on. There were wars and the rule of this specific piece of land changed. At no point in history was there ever a Palstinian country. There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago. During all of history there were both jewish and arabs living in Israel. Calling the jewish people of Israel "colonists" is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own. The arabs, instead of accepting the split launched a war in whclich they lost. And yes, many people were evicted from theor homes. Such is war. Then, they had multiple chances to accept peace offerings and build a country, instead they kept rejecting the offers and kept launching attacks at Israel. Culminating with the oct/7 attack which is where we find ourselves today. As i mentioned earlier, you and many around the world would like the Jews to just die. That won't happen. What you should be doing is making memes about Hamas and how they keep enriching their leaders pockets and building terror infrastructure instead of helping the Palestinian people.
  
  This is actually the stupidest fucking argument you could possibly make on this subject.
  Show me when an Indian country existed before British rule, or a South African country. Does that mean India had no right to freedom? No of course not. So why does their not being a specific country of Palestine before now invalidate the Palestinians right to freedom.
  is trying to change history and paint it as if jews came on ships to this country like conquistadors. After WW2, the UN decided that, maybe, after trying to exterminate the jewish people, it would make sense to give them some small pice of land to officially call their own.
  I actually laughed out loud at this. This would be great comedic timing in a political satire. Accusing me of trying to change history then in the next fucking line you do it yourself. Israel wasn't some magnanimous compensation for the holocaust. Jews were still looked down on by most people in the west so this was the Jews chance to escape but for the governemnts in the west it was a solution to the Jewish "problem", literally just an excuse to get rid of the Jews. So they set up a colony in Palestine, since they didn't give a shit about what the Arabs wanted either. There is no "well akshually it's not a colony because a tiny minority of Jews already lived their" it's a colony by every definition.
  And I really can't be arsed to go through your whole "the Arabs were actually in the wrong for not accepting having their land unilaterally stolen from them" bullshit and you outright hand-waving of Israeli occupation and settlements. Just pretty clear you don't actually give a shit about any sort of morals or reasoning. You're either here because peoples lives are fun little arguments for you, or you made up your mind a while ago and no amount of information to the contrary will ever change your mind so you just causally dismiss it in order to stick to your opinions.
  So with that said I'm just going to block you because you're either a bored troll or an actual morally bankrupt piece of shit, and I don't want to deal with either one.
  
  Excellent debate. Thanks.
  
  At no point in history was there ever a Palestinian country
  Then why did the Brits use the word Palestine?
  There is no Palestinian that can trace his lineage to some Palestinian hundreds of years ago.
  Are you like a disinformation bot??? How do you even suggest to prove this claim???
  
  Wait. To counter my argument that there is no Palestine you provide a snapshot of the mandate recognizing the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land? Doesn't that counter your arguments? Yes, the british called this peice of land Palestine. Do you know where the name originates from? The Jewish Bible where the Philistines are mentioned as large red headed folk probably originating from somewhere near Greece. So do the current Palestinians claim to be their decendants? Jewish people have always lived in the region of Israel which was under the occupation of numerous other empries. The arab folk living in Israel prior to 1948 can trace their heritages to a myriad of neighboring countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and so forth (Some of their surnames are a clear indication of that).
  
  You didn't answer my question. If Palestine never existed then why did everyone in the area call it Palestine?
  Also sorry to break this to you but the Bible is no basis for history or genetics rofl