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  • How relatable. He who hasn't ever accidentally shared classified information about military strikes with a random journalist using a commercial chat app on a private phone, let him first cast a stone at them.

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    • I mean, I haven't, but that's because I don't play Warthunder.

    • (Signal isn't a commercial app. It's free as in freedom, free as in beer, and free as in "there's no data kept on you to possibly sell". The Signal Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, and the Signal app's development and running costs are funded through the Signal Foundation. Please stop using this "commercial app" line.)

      • That's still commercial. You looked all that up and neglected the definition of commercial and commerce. Non-profits can be commercial and they also might not be, this one however is actually involved in commerce.

        • You looked all that up and neglected the definition of commercial and commerce.

          No I didn't, but I knew someone with no idea what they're talking about would insist otherwise without a shred of evidence. Commerce is the voluntary exchange of products and services. If I give you a pig for a goat, we've engaged in commerce. If I give you a toothpick for two dollars, we've engaged in commerce. If I give you some data for money, we've engaged in commerce. If I paint your house so that you redo my shower, we've engaged in commerce.

          this one however is actually involved in commerce

          Cool story. How?

          • The Signal app is free. It's free to be compiled on its own. It's free to be downloaded from the Play Store or the App Store. It's free to be downloaded from their website. It's free to be reused and redistributed and modified by anybody for any purpose at any time. At no point is Signal ever given anything of any tangible value by anybody for a download.
          • The Signal app is free to use. No feature of the Signal app is gatekept in a way that would allow you to pay Signal anything of any value to use it.
          • Signal's servers are free to use, and it can be self-hosted.
          • Signal does not collect any metadata on you in a way that could be worth anything to any commercial interest.
          • Signal does not contain advertisements within its application or on its website.
          • As the Signal Foundation is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, we can look at its form 990. Part VIII (page 9) breaks down income. 10.12 million was made in licensing fees, 0.14 million made in service revenue (keeping in mind that this can be any service, and it's transparently obvious that Signal doesn't make service revenue; past press releases have indicated that the Signal Foundation helps companies like MS incorporate the Signal Protocol into their messengers, which is likely where this comes from), and 8.4 million gross on selling securities. (I imagine the licensing fees are giving big corps like MS, Facebook, and Google the rights to say they use the Signal Protocol, which while an open standard is likely trademarked by the Signal Foundation. That doesn't make Signal a "commercial app".)

          Please enlighten me how this constitutes commerce, because you haven't actually said anything other than "yuh huh". The Signal Foundation engages in commerce, but to say that the protocol or app or service is a commercial product is nonsense that not only has zero evidence but is disprovable.

          • It's a 501 c3 yes, no one is arguing that. It is however very definitely involved in commerce but definition. "Nuh uh" and tax documents that day is a 501c3 just mean is non profit and as an fyi being a 501c3 doesn't mean you can't involve yourself in commerce it means the profits derived from it have to go back into the company or a legitimate charitable organization.

            Correct me if I'm wrong but an app is in this case both a product and a service, so what definition are you using to say they aren't involved in commerce when by your own definition they certainly are. Ps. Exchange doesn't mean this for that though it can. Regardless, you using an app and giving it business and in exchange for a service is commerce.

            • It's a 501 c3 yes, no one is arguing that.

              Good. That's a relief for the level of reality-denying yet to come.

              It is however very definitely involved in commerce but definition.

              The Signal Foundation is (although we're playing fast and loose with "very"). But the Signal Foundation isn't the product or service Signal.

              "Nuh uh" and tax documents that day is a 501c3 just mean is non profit

              Are you literate? The form 990 wasn't linked to show their status as a 501(c)(3); it was put there so you could examine where they obtain their revenue. I explicitly told you why I linked it, gave you a page number, and even broke it down for you in case you didn't want to look on your own.

              and as an fyi being a 501c3 doesn't mean you can't involve yourself in commerce it means the profits derived from it have to go back into the company or a legitimate charitable organization.

              CORRECT. I just showed you how the Signal Foundation is involved in commerce through licensing and service fees. Neither the licenses nor the service fees are generated by people using the Signal app.

              Correct me if I'm wrong

              You are.

              but an app is in this case both a product and a service, so what definition are you using to say they aren't involved in commerce when by your own definition they certainly are.

              The point of commerce is the EXCHANGE of goods and services. Holy fucking shit you understand this even less than I thought. If an old lady asks me to get her something off the top shelf at the grocery store, I do it, and walk away, I've just performed a service for her. This was done with the understanding that nothing would be given back, and we did not fucking engage in commerce holy shit. The point is that Signal provides the product and service freely, i.e. no exchange takes place.

              Ps. Exchange doesn't mean this for that though it can.

              ???????????????????????? I'm apparently losing my fucking mind. Yes, that is the definition of an exchange. This isn't some technical definition. This is the unambiguous definition that everybody except apparently you uses.

              Regardless, you using an app and giving it business and in exchange for a service is commerce.

              ???????????? WHAT BUSINESS? I'm losing my mind. Is this an argument in bad faith, or can you genuinely not understand these basic concepts? If I walk up to a house on Halloween and take some candy from a plate they've just left out, have I given Mrs. Jenkins from two blocks down my business? There is no business being given to Signal when I download or use their app. End of story.

              Hats off if this is bait; you did a really good job.

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78 comments