LW admins instance-ban a Lemm.ee user for being underage
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39616364?scrollToComments=true
https://lemmy.world/u/sag@lemm.ee
https://lemmy.world/modlog/?userId=1957570
Underage, you will be unbanned when you turn 18 (happy birthday in advance)
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I'm really not sure how the TOS apply given it opens with:
This Terms of Service applies to your access to and active use of https://lemmy.world/, it's API's and sub-domain services (ex alt GUIs)(we, us, our the website, Lemmy.World, or LW) as well as all other properties and services associated with Lemmy.World.
Sag wasn't accessing or making active use of lemmy.world itself. This would be like an email provider blocking a particular address from another service because the user of that address doesn't comply with a part of their TOS.
Fully agree.
CLM/CLA.
@flamingos@feddit.uk While the email analogy works well, activityPub is technically an api.
It's a protocol, which I suppose you could argue is an API though that'd be a very liberal definition of API.
Sag wasn’t accessing or making active use of lemmy.world itself.
He posted on "Fediverse@lemmy.world"
And I disagree that that counts as making use of the service. Lemmy also sends Webmentions, if someone with a world account posts a blog post from someone and world then sends a Webmention to that blog, does lemmy.world's TOS apply to the blogger? TOS applying over distributed systems is frankly impracticable.
And I disagree that that counts as making use of the service.
... what does count as making use of the service, if not posting to the service's comms?
Is it impossible to make use of the service unless you're a user signed up on the service?
If so, should it be regarded that admins have no authority to bar any user from another instance from the admin's instance?
They're not making use of the service, though. That's a misunderstanding. They're making use of their home servers copy of the other servers community. The user isn't directly using the remote service.
It'd be like having two email companies, one only allowing over 18s to have an account. You wouldn't say you're making use of the other email service if you send an email to them. You're not beholden to their ToS or CoC. Same applies here imo.
They’re not making use of the service, though. That’s a misunderstanding. They’re making use of their home servers copy of the other servers community. The user isn’t directly using the remote service.
What happens when a user posts to that comm?
Does that user's post remain only on their home server's copy of the comm, or does it get federated to the comm they posted to?
That's irrelevant. The post wasn't made via lemmy.zip. we have a copy of the post but the user didn't interact at all with our website or our server. Their server did, not the user. Again, email. If I have an Outlook account and send an email to a Gmail account, I'm not suddenly subject to the Gmail ToS.
Otherwise I'd set up my own email and say anyone that emailed me had to pay me a million bananas as part of my ToS.
That’s irrelevant. The post wasn’t made via lemmy.zip. we have a copy of the post but the user didn’t interact at all with our website or our server. Their server did, not the user.
Fucking what.
If I write a poem and have someone slap it on the local bulletin board for me, have I not interacted with the bulletin board?
Furthermore, elsewhere you mention interacting as not being accessing (specifically mentioning that 'interacting' only has the CoC applied), but here you claim a lack of interaction as reason for non-enforcement of the ToS.
Again, email. If I have an Outlook account and send an email to a Gmail account, I’m not suddenly subject to the Gmail ToS.
Bruh, that's literally how it works. Why do you think email accounts from other services can be banned from sending to email services? Gmail can (and literally does) run a blocklist, however ineffective, of email accounts from other email services for violating their ToS.
I honestly don't know what you're on about at this point.
You're confusing a code of conduct which is applied to everyone with a terms of service, which i can only apply to people I offer a service to. I don't hold your data, I can't delete your account or prevent you from accessing your home server. I am not providing you a service in any way. It's really that simple.
Your email thing is wrong btw. Emails can be banned (conduct) by another server, but the account can't be deleted by the other server (service). You're confusing the two.
You’re confusing a code of conduct which is applied to everyone with a terms of service, which i can only apply to people I offer a service to.
Like hosting their content?
Content like text posts?
Content that goes and is hosted on your servers when a user is federated and not banned from your instance?
I don’t hold your data,
See above
I can’t delete your account or prevent you from accessing your home server. I am not providing you a service in any way. It’s really that simple.
How does any of that preclude providing a service?
Your email thing is wrong btw. Emails can be banned (conduct) by another server, but the account can’t be deleted by the other server (service). You’re confusing the two.
... okay? .world hasn't 'deleted' the account in question? So either you're very confused about what has happened here, or your attempt at reconciling the email metaphor with your position has proved my point.
Let me go over this again for you.
When you joined lemmy.world, you agreed to their ToS. I have not joined lemmy.world, therefore their ToS does not apply to me. They owe me nothing, and cannot delete my account nor any of my users from lemmy.zip. they can ban my users from lemmy.world, remove their posts etc, but they're only doing that to their copies of the posts. The original copies are on lemmy.zip and lemmy.worlds actions do not affect any other instances that has a copy of the lemmy.zip original.
Therefore they do not provide my users with a service. If lemmy.world shut down tomorrow, lemmy.zip users would still have service while lemmy.world users would not.
Similarly a website i have never been to might have a ToS, but I have not agreed to that ToS, therefore it cannot apply to me. Said website is not providing me a service.
So we've established who is providing who a service in this scenario, which is lemm.ee providing a service to their user. That user isn't using lemmy.world, therefore isn't receiving a service and isn't beholden to their ToS.
Lemmy.world have banned that user from their website because the user is saying their under 18. But they claim to have done this because in their ToS they say they don't provide a service to under 18s. But that user has not agreed to the ToS.
While lemmy.world is entitled to do whatever they want imo, it's their website, to say it's because of their ToS is incorrectly applying it. They aren't providing a service to the user. Lemm.ee is.
Again, they can do whatever they want, it's their website, but its not how it applies to lemmy.zip. If I was to enact that policy, it would be under the code of conduct as that is what is applied to moderation of remote instances.
… what does count as making use of the service, if not posting to the service’s comms?
Using lemmy.word to access content. Using https://feddit.uk/post/25339637 to view the content is making use of feddit.uk's services, using https://lemmy.world/post/26548121 is making use of lemmy.world's services. Would using an archive to access a lemmy.world post be making use of the service?
Is it impossible to make use of the service unless you’re a user signed up on the service?
I wouldn't say so, even going to lemmy.world without an account would be making use of the service in my mind.
If so, should it be regarded that admins have no authority to bar any user from another instance from the admin’s instance?
No? Community spaces can still have rules that govern themselves (that's why sidebars federate), it's just that terms of service are for people making use of the service.
Using lemmy.word to access content. Using https://feddit.uk/post/25339637 to view the content is making use of feddit.uk’s services, using https://lemmy.world/post/26548121 is making use of lemmy.world’s services. Would using an archive to access a lemmy.world post be making use of the service?
Can you post to Lemmy.world using an archive?
If not, the question seems of dubious relevance.
I wouldn’t say so, even going to lemmy.world without an account would be making use of the service in my mind.
But going to Lemmy.world with an account isn't making use of the service, so long as it's not a .world account?
No? Community spaces can still have rules that govern themselves (that’s why sidebars federate), it’s just that terms of service are for people making use of the service.
But if no user from another instance is ever using any of the instances they post to, save for their own, how can an admin have the right to ban them?
Can you post to Lemmy.world using an archive?
If not, the question seems of dubious relevance.
Federation between instances is like an archive in a state of flux. You can still access feddit.de content despite the service being down.
But going to Lemmy.world with an account isn’t making use of the service, so long as it’s not a .world account?
They didn't go to lemmy.world with an account? They went to https://lemm.ee/c/fediverse@lemmy.world with a lemm.ee account. For my comment to reach you, it has to go through Cloudfair as lemmy.world uses them for DDoS protection. Am I subject to Cloudfair's TOS?
But if no user from another instance is ever using any of the instances they post to, save for their own, how can an admin have the right to ban them?
It's perfectly within lemmy.world's remit to ban a user for whatever reasons they feel like, I just don't think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
Federation between instances is like an archive in a state of flux. You can still access feddit.de content despite the service being down.
You aren't answering the question about posting content.
They didn’t go to lemmy.world with an account? They went to https://lemm.ee/c/fediverse@lemmy.world with a lemm.ee account.
Okay, well, they can still go there, it's just that their content no longer federates to lemmy.world. I guess everyone should be happy?
For my comment to reach you, it has to go through Cloudfair as lemmy.world uses them for DDoS protection. Am I subject to Cloudfair’s TOS?
That's not even close to equivalent. If the ToS for dbzer0 included, say, something ridiculous, like "Don't use the letter S", and you used the letter S, would you posting here be a violation of the ToS, or not? Regardless of whether you think the ToS is reasonable.
It’s perfectly within lemmy.world’s remit to ban a user for whatever reasons they feel like, I just don’t think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
If ToS aren't going to be enforced, you may as well not have them.
IDK, its kinda like lemm.ee making the post on behalf of him.
Okay, well, they can still go there, it’s just that their content no longer federates to lemmy.world. I guess everyone should be happy?
It won't federate to anyone, it's the Group actor that forwards content to subscribers.
That’s not even close to equivalent.
I think it is actually. If posting to lemmy.world comm, who then forwards that content to comm subs, makes me a user of lemmy.world's service, then I don't see how I wouldn't be a user of Cloudfair's services in that case. I've still technically initiated an interaction with Cloudfair servers, even if indirectly.
If the ToS for dbzer0 included, say, something ridiculous, like “Don’t use the letter S”, and you used the letter S, would you posting here be a violation of the ToS, or not? Regardless of whether you think the ToS is reasonable.
Well no, I'm not a dbzer0 user so I don't think I'm subject to their TOS. If it was in the comm or instance rules, then I'd be violating those, but TOS is for users of the service.
If ToS aren’t going to be enforced, you may as well not have them.
Where are you getting the idea that I'm saying TOS shouldn't be enforced? I'm not saying that, I'm disputing who it applies to.
It won’t federate to anyone, it’s the Group actor that forwards content to subscribers.
Okay. So again, what's the problem? Everyone should be happy.
I think it is actually. If posting to lemmy.world comm, who then forwards that content to comm subs, makes me a user of lemmy.world’s service, then I don’t see how I wouldn’t be a user of Cloudfair’s services in that case. I’ve still technically initiated an interaction with Cloudfair servers, even if indirectly.
Because Cloudflare's whole deal is that they provide a service to sites, not users.
Humor me for a moment - if you go to a website, directly, do you have to abide by their terms of service?
Where are you getting the idea that I’m saying TOS shouldn’t be enforced? I’m not saying that, I’m disputing who it applies to.
You said, and I quote:
I just don’t think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
Okay. So again, what’s the problem? Everyone should be happy.
No one on lemmy.world will see anything Sag posts, ~ 1/3 of all Lemmy users. Not the end of the world, but it can be demotivating.
Humor me for a moment - if you go to a website, directly, do you have to abide by their terms of service?
No, a TOS is a contract, you have to agree to it to be subject to it.
Where are you getting the idea that I’m saying TOS shouldn’t be enforced? I’m not saying that, I’m disputing who it applies to.
You said, and I quote:
I just don’t think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
Remote user, i.e. someone who's account isn't on lemmy.world. Local accounts on lemmy.world should still be subject to the TOS.
Maybe !fediverse@lemmy.zip could become an alternative
4.0: By agreeing to this section of the document, you accept that:
4.0.0: You may only use Lemmy.zip if you can clearly understand and actively comply with the terms laid out on this page.
4.0.1: You have not previously been permanently banned from the website.
4.0.2: You are at least 18 years of age and over the regulated minimum age defined by your local law to access Lemmy.zip.
Ah, thanks
Just to make sure, @Demigodrick@lemmy.zip , would you have instance banned that user in a similar situation?
Not if they're a federated user. They're not my user to worry about. Even if they say they're not 18 it doesn't apply imo, they're not interacting directly with lemmy.zip.
You have to agree that you're over 18 to use lemmy.zip directly as per ToS
Great, thanks!
Not if they’re a federated user. They’re not my user to worry about. Even if they say they’re not 18 it doesn’t apply imo, they’re not interacting directly with lemmy.zip.
4.0.2: You are at least 18 years of age and over the regulated minimum age defined by your local law to access Lemmy.zip.
Does posting to Lemmy.zip not count as accessing?
Just replied to another of your comments, but in summary no. They're not one of my users and I don't hold any data on them nor do they access lemmy.zip directly.
and I don't hold any data on them
This here is the relevant question imo. Could the federation put relevant remote users' data onto your server? Well, not any user-specific info like the mail adress they signed up with etc. But could a judge rule some specific public post to be relevant personal data? I am not sure.
Its only info they provide to be shown publicly.
Just replied to another of your comments, but in summary no. They’re not one of my users and I don’t hold any data on them nor do they access lemmy.zip directly.
Then the ToS don't apply to anyone except your own users? Those who are signed up on your instance, I mean?
No, anyone that isn't having a service from lemmy.zip isn't beholden to our ToS. Our CoC on the other hand we do enforce as part of the site rules when interacting with lemmy.zip communities.