Starlink dishes found on Russian military drones after being shot down
Starlink dishes found on Russian military drones after being shot down
According to a report from Ukrainian website Defense Express, Russian drones are now actively using Starlink hardware for "unlimited" communication over Ukraine's territory. This past week, Kyiv's...
According to a report from Ukrainian website Defense Express, Russian drones are now actively using Starlink hardware for "unlimited" communication over Ukraine's territory. This past week, Kyiv's defense forces shot down 28 drones sent as part of Russia's attack on the Kharkiv region, and some Starlink-branded equipment was seen among the wreckage for the first time.
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It's very difficult for Starlink to stop this from happening while still allowing the capability for Ukraine to do it. If Russia obtains SL systems through intermediaries and then uses them over Ukrainian territory there's realistically no way for SL to know whether it's Russia or Ukraine using the service.
It's really not all that difficult from a technical perspective. All that Ukraine or Starlink would need to do is keep track of the MACs in use, blacklisting those which have been lost or destroyed. Some would slip through, but it's better than not doing it at all.
Of course, with Musk being pro-Russian, I don't expect Starlink to help Ukraine out any more than they have to for optics.
It’s really not all that difficult from a technical perspective.
I'll go ahead and reply to you, @BurningRiver@beehaw.org and @School_Lunch@lemmy.world at the same time since you all three had the same idea.
All that Ukraine or Starlink would need to do is keep track of the MACs in use, blacklisting those which have been lost or destroyed.
A whitelist of authorized MAC addresses is easy from a "technical" prospective. It would simply be a looong list of 48 bit addresses but you are ignoring the massive challenge of managing that list.
Making this work would require the Ukrainian Government to setup an official StarLink registration process for every StarLink system in the country, including the ones that are privately owned. Then once a SL system was registered with the Government SL would have to setup a whole separate system to process those registrations.
Now you also need the opposite. Every time that a registered system shouldn't be used because it was destroyed or someone stopped paying their bill the Ukrainian Government would have to process that and send it StarLink to have it de-authorized.
So no it's not at all difficult from a "technical" perspective but doing this would require stomping privacy rights into a mudhole and without perfect execution across a warzone the size of a nation it will do little to nothing to solve the problem.
If this was a practical solution Ukraine would have already requested that StarLink make it happen. The fact that the really smart people in Ukraine haven't asked for this means that they've already dismissed the idea as unpalatable, unworkable or both.
As I said in my other comment, Ukraine is under martial law. Privacy rights are low on the list at the moment due to Russians invading and killing citizens. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to save lives.
If saving lives was a goal, Ukraine wouldn't have started a war.
What mental gymnastics did you have to perform to believe Russia entering Ukraine is somehow Ukraine starting the war?
That's like saying you started a fight when I'm the one who just sucker punched you first.
History didn't start in 2021. All Ukraine had to do was not try to join NATO or use the military against Ukrainian civilians that voted to separate from Ukraine.
Couldn’t they just spoof the MAC of the Ukrainian link?
I'd hope that Starlink devices have attestation to prevent MAC spoofing.
You think it's easy to keep track of tens of thousands of relatively small networking devices in a warzone? What about Starlink kits smuggled in through third countries?
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but wouldn't starlink know the serial numbers or Mac addresses of the dishes they gave to Ukraine? Couldn't they easily filter that region so only those work?
They probably can do that, but a lot of the connections Ukraine are using will have been donated by third parties, rather than directly purchased by the Ukrainians. How do they tell the difference between those, and someone claiming to be doing that then shipping the dishes to Russia?
Have the Ukrainian government submit their MAC addresses?
Which would mean that every single StarLink system in Ukraine would have to be registered with the Government, even the ones owned by private citizens. They'd have to be in person registrations as well because any automated system, such as a website, could be used by Russia to get their own gear registered.
Ukraine is under martial law, so privacy rights (especially involving something like MAC addresses which Starlink already has, not to mention that most citizens still in country can't afford it in the first place) are far down on the list. It's an unfortunate cost of Russia's invasion. The Ukrainians have already done similar things with cell-based devices, it's not some massive undertaking that would be new to them. It's not like they'd make it front page news, either.
Really, it's not even just Ukraine that could do something. Starlink can too, but because maintaining lists has no ROI they won't until they're forced.
SpaceX and The Pentagon tackled this months ago. You just don't know about it because it doesn't make a good "Fuck Elon" headline and was never featured here on Lemmy.
The only way that MAC address filtering can be used to solve this problem is to make it so that no Starlink system can operate inside Ukraine unless it's registered with SpaceX by the Ukrainian Government. It's a mobile satellite system that can be purchased all over the world, activated with a mobile plan, and then sent to Ukraine for use.
not to mention that most citizens still in country can’t afford it in the first place
Numbers are hard to come by but a conservative estimate has at least 250,000 Starlink systems operating in Ukraine. Non-government users included ISPs, businesses of all kinds, and regular people with sufficient means. It's not nearly as small a number as you think.
Why would private ones need to be registered?
Mobile GPS is artificially disabled above a certain ground speed to prevent them being used as bootleg missile guidance systems.
Just put a speed limit on Starlink dishes, and then if you want to permit one side to use them simply whitelist those MACs. Perhaps the real reason is that a private company doesn't want to be seen as choosing sides or maybe there are implications for international rules of war.
Why would private ones need to be registered?
Because otherwise Russia can simply buy them elsewhere, activate them, and then ship them to the front lines. This is almost certainly how Russia is getting them. With unregistered private ownership anyone, including Russia, can operate a Starlink system inside Ukraine's territory (assuming it's not geo-fenced as territory being held by Russia).
Just put a speed limit on Starlink dishes
They already have. It's 160kph (100mph) which is basically the maximum flight speed of the Shahed 136 drones that Russia is putting them on.
So Russia buys a Starlink terminal through a foreign intermediary, activates it, and then slaps it on a SHAHED-136 which is a slow enough platform that it doesn't trip SpaceX's ground speed limit.
....and then if you want to permit one side to use them simply whitelist those MACs.
Stop trying to hand wave the problem away with the word "simply" and explain PRECISELY how you are going to get the MAC addresses that will be whitelisted. You're talking about a mobile satellite system that can be bought in nearly 100 countries and then subscribed to a roam service that works anywhere in the world. Meaning that you could buy one in Omaha, Nebraska, activate it, and then use it in Ukraine.
Perhaps the real reason is that a private company doesn’t want to be seen as choosing sides or maybe there are implications for international rules of war.
Of course that doesn't make for a good ol' "Fuck Elon" headline so you won't read about it here on Lemmy.
Just a thought, and I may be way off because admittedly I don’t know a lot about how it works - wouldn’t Ukraine have legitimately registered their SL gear? If it’s not registered by Ukraine and it’s in Ukraine, can’t they kill the uplink?